Musak

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:14 am

One thing that fraustrates me is that the Ses's veiw of music seems to have no base in actual musical knowledge, yet they make statements that are supposed to be the 'be all and end all'.
If they wish to use philosophical 'rulers' to judge the music they should make this very clear, as otherwise they seem to be just plain wrong! But I feel they will always need a bit of research to back it up.

Abel Holzing
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Postby Abel Holzing » Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:18 pm

adrasteia wrote:I would say that the Ses concert series listed on their Web site -and I would assume aimed mostly at members- gives a far clearer representation of their attitudes, and there is a very strong Classical/Mozart Bias.

Their promotional blurb (incl posters on the door, designed to attract members of the public) specifically states that "anyone is welcome" (to the so-called "early evening recitals").
The concerts are:
- Mozart and Beethoven Sonatas
- Mozart Duets; solos by Purcell and Mozart
- Mozart Sonatas
- Haydn and Beethoven Trios
- Bach and Haydn.
- Renaissance and baroque motets with solos and duets (6 composers)

... i.e. out of 15 composers Mozart features 4 times (27%) - a fairly strong Mozart bias.

The list you have provided is part of the 'potted' Art in Action festival, so some of the groups playing will, I should think (but couldn't find a list on the site) be visiting artists and musicians, and so will offer a wider range of music.

Yes, they are largely visiting artists.

The music offered is also for the public and not just Ses members, so a wider selection is required to attract outside interest.

As stated above, the "evening recital series" is also not just for SES members - see comments above. A possible explanation for the choice of music is that 'Art in Essence' is organised by the younger members of the school, who have apparently been asked to "be guided by the notion of excellence" whilst having been given free rein otherwise.

There is still a pretty tame range of music.

Agreed.

Peter Sanders Reynolds
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Postby Peter Sanders Reynolds » Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:07 pm

I WAS VERY VERY AFFECTED AS A YOUNG MAN BY THE S.E.S BAN ON ALL MODERN MUSIC. IT'S VERY SIMILAR TO THEIR BAN ON EVERYTHING ELSE MODERN. HOWEVER IF YOU ARE A MUSICIAN THE BAN WAS A HUGE CONSTRAINT AND LED TO YEARS OF GUILT.
PSR
Last edited by Peter Sanders Reynolds on Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:41 am

Peter Sanders Reynolds wrote:I WAS VERY VERY AFFECTED AS A YOUNG MAN BY THE S.E.S BAN ON ALL MODERN MUSIC. IT'S VERY SIMILAR TO THEIR BAN ON EVERYTHING ELSE MODERN. HOWEVER IF YOU ARE A MUSICION THE BAN WAS A HUGE CONSTRAINT AND LED TO YEARS OF GUILT.
PSR


Guilt because of hidden preference for a banned music?

-also, when you write in capitals on the internet it comes across a bit like shouting! An entire post in capitals can seem a bit loud!-

Peter Sanders Reynolds
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STUPID ATTITUDE TO MUSIC

Postby Peter Sanders Reynolds » Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:32 pm

Adrasteia,
I'm terribly sorry to have deafened your hyperthetical/allegorical/virtual ear drums. I do take your point and will use the larger case only when absolutely nessessary. Thankyou for your little lesson in internet etiquette which really does fall on suitable and listening ears.

Guilt. In terms of: of course one as a young boy loves rock music etc. It is a really debilitating thing to have to struggle so long against bad advise not realising it is bad. I was brought up to believe day in day out that modern music (rock,pop,jazz,blues) was all demonic. It was all branded as 'pop music'. No sense of qualitative differences. Just a stupid unthinking blanket wrapped over the whole of it. I was very musical and in a normal school I would have got training in Jazz theory and all kinds of sophisticated musical knowledge that was denied me and I'm only just struggling with now. This is a very very grave ommission in my educative process. Because not only did I go through periods of guilt that burst out every one or two years from the ages of 15 to 23 due to the brainwashing that all beats are demonic and wild and bad for meditation and stillness of mind but I didn't get basic musical training for someone who was very gifted on the piano.
I love classical music as well and am very grateful for the introduction to Mozart and the inherent granduer of it all. But it ruins Mozart to prescribe him and ban every thing else. Debenham once said seeing as we had Mozart there was no need for any more composers and that was why musical composition and theory was not taught at St James.
Well music is my career and all that was very very damaging and debilitating and just plain ignorant. Brainwashing. Stupid and I feel like swearing but will be very mild. Mindless nincompoopery.
PSR

Alban
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Postby Alban » Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:10 am

Personally, I think they were scared that we might listen to the lyrics which would have created a challenge to their cosy little world.

Peter Sanders Reynolds
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Postby Peter Sanders Reynolds » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:32 pm

naaaaaaaaaaaaa....well yes to a certain extent...but no they were too condescending to think the lyrics had any power...it was the beats and rythems...that were very often alluded to as 'demonic' because of their power to 'agitate the mind'. It used to make me paranoid about the slightest touch of repeating music in my mind...before I finnaly caught on that the mind is naturally a busy place any way, music or no music.
It'd be hilarious to listen in on some of those supposedly 'still' S.E.S types and see what hilarity goes on in their minds. But no. It was the beats and the noise. That's all they heard.

PSR

daska
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Postby daska » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 pm

Actually Alban thinking back to SES weeks my feeling is that they were not only scared we youngsters might just get a bit 'carried away' by the lyrics - we might start to think - and the rhythm - what, a shagfest in the chapel maybe? (Which is daft really seeing as there was more bodily contact at the 6th form ball). BUT but but, I think there was more than an element of jealousy. The adults had to be so concerned about appearances and becoming one with the absolute. Were they getting up at dawn willingly enough? Was the wholemeal bread lumpy? Could they get through meditation without falling asleep? And fasting - we could refuse to do that on the grounds that we were still growing and didn't have spare calories and anyone who saw how much food I could pack away and still hide behind a rake had no doubt that a days fast would be a serious problem! But ultimately WE were more interested in finding hiding places so we could avoid meetings and so they all knew or at least suspected that we were only there because we didn't have any choice in the matter. Therefore, we had a freedom they were denied because we didn't have to prove how worthy we were and in my experience the mental shackles are far more frustrating than the physical ones.

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:00 am

Let me know if I missed anything in the earlier pages about music but the only reason that Mozart is supposedly the best is because Maclaren thought so. In fact, I'd say that about 80% of rules/preferences in the SES were Maclaren's personal rules, opinions, and preferences, which is what makes the whole oganization so fucking hypocritical. We're all their to let go of our egos by gratifying one man's ego. While he was alive, he certainly found a way to be treated like a god. Good old rationalization! I hate that man. But I certainly feel sorry for him because he must have, in some ways, have hated himself too.

I have a suspicion that he was gay, which was one thing that lead him to hate women so much (as evidenced by their treatment in the SES.) And yet, by the philosophy he followed, homosexuality was unnatural, so he must have been a very sad man deep inside. And a very angry one, as well.

I spent my first 10 years or so listening to nothing but classical music, with a little gentle folk and religious thrown in for good measure. My mother was so proud to tell people that my favorite music was Mozart. Well, it's not like I had a range of music to choose from, was it?!?!?! Of course, I do like Mozart, but now I listen to a HUGE variety of music.

Goblinboy
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Maclaren, music and sexuality

Postby Goblinboy » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:21 am

Free Thinker wrote:Let me know if I missed anything in the earlier pages about music but the only reason that Mozart is supposedly the best is because Maclaren thought so...<snip>

I have a suspicion that he was gay, which was one thing that lead him to hate women so much (as evidenced by their treatment in the SES.) And yet, by the philosophy he followed, homosexuality was unnatural, so he must have been a very sad man deep inside. And a very angry one, as well.


Yes FT, the concensus on this and other threads indicates that the SES obsession with Mozart is mostly due to Maclaren's personal taste and nothing more. Even some devoted SES members find it a bit much.

I had wondered about his sexual orientation in a thread last year (see thread "So Who Was Leon Maclaren?"), because his apparent homophobia seemed at odds with his clear preference for the work of gay or bisexual artists - Michaelangelo, Leonardo, Botticelli, Shakespeare, etc, and his seeming abhorence of women.

His behaviour is not at all unlike a lot of powerful homosexual men who hated themselves for their sexual orientation - in your country, J.Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn come to mind. Hard to think of more manipulative, devious people, although then there's Leonardo Da Vinci Maclaren.

And agree with his innate sadness. Bullies are not happy people.

daska
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Postby daska » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:08 pm

How limiting to teach that because Mozart was such a genius no one will ever meet his standards let alone surpass them. How arrogant. And how stupid. Of course they won't if they're never permitted to learn the fundamentals of musical composition.

I think it's important not to exclude Mozart just because of an excess of it in your youth (though I agree it's hard sometimes), but other composers are equally important and a true appreciation of music cannot develop without a broad knowlege - one which, thanks to SES, I didn't have the opportunity to develop until my twenties. And I still haven't decided on any favorite or most worthy because there is so much to learn from all of it.

As for Mr MacLaren, even if he wasn't gay he was certainly mysongenistic. I remember meeting him on a few occasions. Well, meeting, hmm, how else can I describe it, being physically present yet not present at all on his level of conciousness? (He, of course, being at one with the Absolute, lol) My overriding memory of him is of possibly the rudest person I ever had the misfortune to share air with. Did he ever 'meet' anyone of the female persuasion? It was almost as if there was a forcefield around him that specifically excluded anything female from his presence. Not even the faintest hint of an acknowlegement. And I'm not talking about when he was busy with anyone or anything. The world is not a sadder place without his malign influence. Definitely the way he behaved towards women on the occasions I was there was exactly in line with what we were taught about serving, obeying, being invisible, staying at home until our future husband came and knocked on the door (courtesy of SMC that one - how on earth our future husband would know of our existance if we never left the house she didn't explain - grand plans for arranged marriages perhaps.) That probably ought to move onto a different thread but it seems to fit with the last couple of comments.

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adrasteia
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Postby adrasteia » Mon Apr 25, 2005 7:51 pm

I recieved an email from Mat Stollar about a recent incident that occured at St. James School asking if I'd mind posting it on the site, so here it is- (I'm sure you'll let me know if there are any objections!)

Peter Sanders-Reynolds <petersandersreynolds@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
I got a peice of information that should be put in the Musak section.

Not being on the site could you post it.

The information is:

At the last end of Spring term Musical recital a boy came on stage and
played the wrong peice to all the parents and attending school. He played a
piano version of Jimi Hendrix's The Wind Cries Mary.
The boy was suspended for a week.

Just a little 'fact'

If you need further information and proof,please ask.

Mat


Just to supply a bit more info, here's what I know about the subject:

The boy won his class in the school music competition with the Hendrix -and it was a fight to get it in the competition in the first place- but he was not allowed to perform it in the recital. (Due to the genre/quality/unsuitabily of the music rather than lack of space in the concert I assume: he obviously wanted to perform the Hendrix in his 'slot' anyway!)
He was down in the programme to perform one of his own competitions with which he had won another class. (The recital was to give class/prize winners a chance to perform to an audience btw.)
While he was on the stage he took the opportunity of stating his veiws about the constraints put upon music in the school while professing his support for the school overall. (I won't try and paraphrase as I'll probably get it wrong, but that was basically it I think.)
....he followed that by performing the Hendrix. Although he returned a few people later and performed his own composition.
Yes, a week suspension was the result.

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:53 am

Brave guy!

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:33 am

not familiar with the song but perhaps next time he could play "all along the watchtower" (dylen did it first I think)

"There must be some kind of way out of here,"
said the joker to the thief,
"There's too much confusion,
I can't get no relief.
Businessmen they drink my wine,
plowmen dig my earth
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth"
"No reason to get excited,"
the thief, he kindly spoke
"There are many here among us
who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I, we've been through that
and this is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late"

All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants, too

Outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl

ross nolan
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on music

Postby ross nolan » Fri Jun 24, 2005 9:20 am

Scanning the music postings seems to throw up a definite resistance to the SES overemphasis on Mozart -- I know bugger all about the historical or technical growth of musical art but I did think Mozart , the person, was a 'coarse' and hardly spritually calmed individual seemingly totally at odds with his music (didn't see "Amadeus" but the antagonism with Saltieri (sic) was apparently severe and Mozart did compose without any sort of formal process ) Does not seem like a role model for the SES nor did his music seem to "refine" him. I got into a slanging match on another thread simply trying to defend such music as against aboriginal tribal chanting (Australia is a fault line between 40 000 years of cultural development rather than the shades of grey in Europe or Europe vs USA) and I tried to defend the 'modern' Mozart to Beatles vs. aboriginal which I thought was a 'no brainer' comparison.
25 years ago I attended a Presbyterian church and found that dancing was 'forbidden' to the Methodists( who joined in the Uniting church) also some contemporary music -- this seemed pretty archaic even then .

Folk music and bushbands /folkdancing were popular then too ( seem to have died out now except among a small band of diehards) It seems that a lot of really current music lacks 'singability' and is so electronically hyped up as to be disharmonic (sic) and lacking in any uplifting qualities .
Surely at some point music does lose it's better qualities and dancing has only 'classical' waltzes,folk dances, etc plus things like swing,jive etc that are all well over fifty years old with no real invention in many years .

The grunge and rap type music seems to come from American ghetto culture and reflect little really optimistic or bright character let alone spiritual uplift -- one can only hope that too much classics does not swing the pendulum too far the other way.
( SES started in the great depression and the economic theories of Henry George -- he and others like Kondratieff etc noted the strange synchronicity with economic cycles, women's fashion (skirt length vs dow index) and popular music etc -- some of the best upbeat music came from slave times, wartime and in depressions (needed to counter the general angst )

Maybe I am out of touch but I found the recent Eurovision contest entirely forgettable and really memorable,danceable,hummable etc music seems to peter out about 20 years ago -- Mozart might have stood the test of time better than Kylie Minogue or Sid Vicious and in a way the failure of really good new musical styles for so long has meant a reversion was likely .

It is curious how important this subject seems to be within SES. Ross
Skeptic


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