Musak

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
leonmich
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:05 am

Re: on music

Postby leonmich » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:12 am

Non western music falls out of the analytical framework of western musical theory, and the attempt to understand another culture using our own as a reference point
will give very limited appreciation. Questions of "which are better" regarding such a nebulous question as art are not only unanswerable but bearing in mind the situation of many native peoples and general racist western attitudes unnecessarily inflamatory.

It is only recently, using frequency analysis that Australian Aboriginal musics true complexity, organisation and tonal heirachy are being understood to western ethnomusicloigists. The same situation applies in regard for what you quaintly described in a previous post as "african drumming", which makes me think you are unfamiliar with the tonaly organised music of West Africa, or the percussive music of central African republic, where even today it is still impossible to notate correctly using our advanced sophisticated western notation.
Regarding "African tribal drumming" I would refer you to the work of Simha Arom, who clearly illustrates using new non western derived modes of analysis that music of central africa contains certain devices of great complexity, which are far more advanced than their equivalents in western music, both classical and modern. This does not of course denigrate western music in any way, or diminish its great achievements, but shows the pointlessness of cultural comparative arguments. It is an interesting aside that western classical music in the 20th century to closely exhibit and explore qualities found in certain folk musics. Examples would be, Bartok -gypsy , Cage-Japan Zen, Scelsci -Tibet Tantra. Ligeti- Aka Pygmy. These are all composers at the apex of western classical music, a 1000 years of practice.

Your also incorrect about Mozart, his works are carefully organised on a formal level and he was throughly drilled in technical matters by father Leopold.

ross nolan wrote:I know bugger all about the historical or technical growth of musical art


So why didn't this accurate self assesment stop you from posting?

Your views on woman, music and culture completely reflect the SES that I grew up with. I can see why your fascinated with it.

ross nolan
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

muzak

Postby ross nolan » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:28 am

Dear leonmich et al -- I guess you are probably right about the technicalities of musical analysis -- it's a case of " I don't know what it is but I know what I like " . I don't know how much 'information' can be communicated by a single instrument compared to a symphony orchestra but I would opt for the latter . My comments about Aboriginal culture also related to the false "corroborees" put on when the tourist buses pull up -- they were only rarely performed and for special occasions -- I suppose it would be like staging a wedding ceremony over and over for western people or telling the same joke ad infinitum . (ie it is out of context (

People buy aboriginal "dot paintings' thinking they are examples of the oldest art on Earth when in fact dot painting is not traditional at all -- it was first invented in about 1970 at an aboriginal settlement called , ironically. "Utopia" --- I would expect that some of the 'authentic' secret aboriginal ceremonies re enacted twice daily are also recent inventions == not unlike the Chief Seattle thing .-- maybe the "Muzak" too ?

The annual street festival in Melbourne is called"Moomba" which the city fathers were told, by a Mr Bill Onus - tribal elder - meant "let's get together and have fun" -- in fact it meant "Lubra's bum" (or butt to Americans) -- a great in joke for our Aboriginal friends who are equally able to discern humbug and take the mickey out of pretentious whites.

A sense of humour like that might help humanize the whole race vs race thing and lighten it up a bit . The strictness of even mainstream religious sects like the Methodists was a revelation to me -- the Jehovah's witnesses have similar prohibitions like no Christmas celebration etc and others views about dance,popular culture etc -- by letting really grunge music and anything goes in general society doesn't this open the door to cult leaders (like McClaren ) to go to the other extreme ?

I don't have any fascination with the SES/SOP as such -- just got exposed to an obviously warped set of teachings from a not obviously offbeat group of people (looking very 'respectable' ) who are somehow ensconed in the very bowels of the Royal Society here and given full hospitality by the local council, advertise in the railway stations etc -- I want to know what is going on and if it is harmful why is it being allowed to continue with official backing or at best indifference?

You don't know me LM and I don't know you so let's not trade insults or make disparaging assessments of each other .

Regards Ross N.
Skeptic

sallyj
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 5:54 pm

Musak

Postby sallyj » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:14 pm

Talking of ridiculous music decisions. Anyone else remember that we weren't allowed to sing Happy Birthday? apparently the tune was too populist or something, instead we had to sing some absurd new version which I think was written by Noel Skinner.

Also remember those lectures about the demonic beat of modern music??

leonmich
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:05 am

Postby leonmich » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:41 pm

Ok agreed re insults.

I don't know how much 'information' can be communicated by a single instrument compared to a symphony orchestra but I would opt for the latter .



If you don't know I find it's best not to jump to conclusions. Why opt at all? You seem to always want an either /or solution.
I find more information is expressed per square inch when composers use fewer instruments, Beethoven quartets against the symphonies, Mozart late quintets against the operas. Regarding solo instruments, it would be a brave man who claimes that Bach's Well Tempered Clavier contains less information than the Brandenburg's or that Haydn's piano sonatas less than the symphonies .

And regarding hiphop, don't use such sweeping statements, the devil is in the details. Its not all bitches n' ho's.


And Sarahj, re Noel Skinner, What an utter tosspot!!" I used to play theme from star wars during the concerts, tone deaf maestro never figured out who it was.......

Those endless bloody singing lessons, but never taught theory etc. I was thrashed many times for listening to Jazz rock etc.

daska
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:29 pm
Location: UK

Postby daska » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:41 pm

Hi Sally

Are you thinking of 'we wish you a very happy birthday, a joyous and celebrated birthday, to you dear <noname>, we wish you a long long life'.

I was there!

Now, I'm the first to admit that my memory is not great where the school is concerned but my memory tells me this 'round' was originally taught to us by an american girl and I'm pretty sure it was in the refectory at 92. It was then adopted by the school.

I actually had call to look up the details a few weeks back and as far as I can ascertain the music was by a William Shield, who was house composer at Covent Garden for a while (way back when in 17something) and the words are by Christine Lavin, who is a ukulele player from Utah.

http://www.christinelavin.com/03110301xmasday.html

Anyone else remember this momentous lunchtime?

User avatar
Keir
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:04 am
Location: London

Postby Keir » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:45 am

I did have to laugh when I read that the approved tune was a mix of 1700 Opera House and bible belt Ukelele . Just like the roots of their philosophy - quite an eclectic mix!

translates as 'My way or the highway'.

User avatar
Free Thinker
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:05 am
Location: USA

Postby Free Thinker » Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:45 am

daska wrote:Hi Sally

Are you thinking of 'we wish you a very happy birthday, a joyous and celebrated birthday, to you dear <noname>, we wish you a long long life'.


Ack! I was a 1:1 assistant for a child with disabilities in a Waldorf school this past semester, and they always sang that as part of the birthday song before singing the traditional verse. We did sing "happy happy" instead of "long long".

truelies
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:09 pm

Postby truelies » Sat Jul 09, 2005 10:04 am

As a musician (rock/Jazz/Folk) who has a spouse (seperated as you might expect) that is in the school I find this fascinating in its absurdity. I was invited along to a concert at which some very poorly performed mangled attempts were made at various popular (nothing likly to cause any undue excitement or emotion of course) Mozart mostly and a bit of that Bach chappie. The seriousness with which it was undertaken was quite an entertainment in its self.
Then of course there was the acceptable SES face of modern Music, some of David Wards compositions. :evil: Tee Hee

Coralie
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 10:25 pm

Postby Coralie » Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:05 am

Hi Sally,

I remember the change from the traditional Birthday song well. We were down in the basement having lunch on my Birthday. As was the custom, those at lunch started to sing "Happy Birthday to you!", to me. Miss Caldwell stood up and stopped everyone half way through and said that we were no longer allowed to sing it and that we would be given a new song to sing when they had found an appropriate one. Everyone could just say Happy Birthday. It left a very flat feeling in the room. I don't remember the song that was approved, but the memory of that experience stays with me.

Coralie :fadein:

User avatar
Keir
Posts: 177
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:04 am
Location: London

Postby Keir » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:47 am

I think we should all join hands and sing it for her now, c'mon guys...


HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU
HAPPY BIRTHDAY DEAR CORALIE
HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.
:new-bday:

It may be a few years late but its sung with feeling (expecting rude note from my neighbours any minute).

What a lame arse way to behave from Miss Caldwell. I dont suppose you thought to question her as to why you weren't allowed to sing the traditional song - silly me, of course you didn't, too busy being obedient under threat of chastisement...etc

User avatar
Free Thinker
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:05 am
Location: USA

Postby Free Thinker » Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:34 am

:bday: :bday: :bday: :B-fly: :turn-l: :lol: :icecream:

Ok. These smilies need some work, Daffy!!! Come on - shooting guns? They're all so negative! Not that we don't need negative ones but...

ross nolan
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

music and brainwashing?

Postby ross nolan » Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:08 pm

Dear All, further to the discussion on music and the SES an article in today's (Melbourne, 24 sept. ) Herald Sun caught my eye - page 11 "Bach bites in therapy" -- 'the right type of music can help put people into a trance, a psychologist says. Wendy -Louise Walker a former lecturer in clinical psychology at the university of new south wales ,said the work of Johan Sebastian Bach was particularly useful when hypnotizing people .........."

One wonders if the preference for W A Motzart might possibly have some deeper significance ? Is "the practice" combined with background music in later stages and there any 'pavlovian' conditioning possible by associating certain music with states of mind and maybe suggestibility ?

Just a thought........ Any comments ?

www.heraldsun.com.au might have the whole piece up.

Cheers, Ross.
Skeptic


Return to “General discussion of SES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 49 guests