the Irish ses school john scottus

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
shewolff
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the Irish ses school john scottus

Postby shewolff » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:38 pm

Hello i was wondering if there are any contributors from IReland here? i wanted to know what anyone might have to say about the John Scottus school in dublin. I was thinking of sending my son there and visited it a few times adn even met With Mrs Telford the headmistress Mr telford is the headmaster
they spoke about sanskrit being included for educational purposes not religious ect but seemed evasive on ohter topics it seems too good to be true in one way or is it just so unusual for a school to be really dedicated to the development of people that then unused to that i feel its a bit wierd andthen investigate to find all this information here?
any comment on the Irish school? any past pupils here ect willing to talk about it? how they foudn it ect?

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:53 am

shewolf - I am not from the school but looking at their website from half a world away this is what I can glean

Firstly - the school IS open (which many aren't) about their close ties with the SES.

It seems apparent from reading the teachers page that many (if not all) are in the SES.

This from the mission statement
John Scottus will accept any child into the school that its resources allow it to take, unless there is no place available in the relevant class. This means that it accepts the concepts contained in recent legislation vis. inclusiveness


To me this translates they are only being "inclusive" cos of recent legislation. Note later how difficult they make it for students with any sort of special need or disability to enrol. Keep in mind the SES has some rather odd views about people born with disabilities. Something about getting the body you wanted so ergo, if you wanted one that wasn't perfect there is something inherently wrong with your soul.

Note this glowing testimonial
?I regard John Scottus as one of the most important initiatives in Irish Education in recent years. It seems to aim for the right things both academically and ethically?. John Dillon, Regius Professor of Greek, Trinity College Dublin.


Well that certainly sounds like an "expert" voice that you should listen to.
What they don't tell you (and is buried in the mission statement http://www.johnscottus.ie/policy%20docu ... %20web.htm ) is that Prof John is on the Board of Governors.

They teach Verdic Maths the benefit of which is in some doubt.

The keep the boys and girls in separate classes as the SES has some very outmoded beleifs about gender roles.

Unless you fully embrace all the SES beleive in then perhaps sending your child to an SES school is not a good idea.

Snowman
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Postby Snowman » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:16 pm

a different guest wrote:
To me this translates they are only being "inclusive" cos of recent legislation. Note later how difficult they make it for students with any sort of special need or disability to enrol. Keep in mind the SES has some rather odd views about people born with disabilities. Something about getting the body you wanted so ergo, if you wanted one that wasn't perfect there is something inherently wrong with your soul.


ADG, I think that it may be prudent in some cases to not accept children with special needs if the teaching staff are not qualified or trained to deal with them. The SES does indeed believe in disability (of any form) to be brought about through a choice of the individual before birth but I think it is only part of the issue here.

If I had a child with special needs or a disability, I would ensure that the teaching staff are competent, trained and qualified to teach my child appropriately.

RE: the governor extolling the virtues of the school is basically an internal marketing trick - because he's a Prof is he therefore wise? - he's certainly not impartial.

And I agree with all your other points.

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Postby a different guest » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:12 pm

The SES does indeed believe in disability (of any form) to be brought about through a choice of the individual before birth but I think it is only part of the issue here.


Snowman I am happy to be corrected but I have read a couple of times that the SES have some odd view re disability - however this is the only link that comes to hand at the mo
http://www.esatclear.ie/~dialogueireland/ses2.htm
The woman suddenly becomes worried by the implications of this. ?Hold on. What if a child is born deformed??

?It?s desire,? answers Miss Crammond. ?They say you get the body you deserve.?

The woman is becoming more and more agitated. ?Who says? Who says a baby gets the body it deserves??

?The sages. The wise men.?


But perhaps this is a misrepresentation? or it's one of the older beleifs they have subseqently changed?

shewolff
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Postby shewolff » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:44 pm

Yes mrs telford the headmistress did mention to me that 'we believe that every child is born 'perfect' and that they are primarily concerned with further elucidating this throughout their education -so presumably they believe if a child has disability this is they way the child was 'meant to be'
what i foudn disconcerting when i spoke iwht her is that she couldn;t fully explain to me in a clear way what vedic maths is and why they teach it and somehow the absolute came into it -which is all well and good if you are a mathematician at university perhaps but not when you are samll learning to count, add ect i still do not know why this is a 'better way to know numbers' and when i questioned things her way of explaining was to offer that i begin their 10 week parenting course with my partner. i foudn this very strange no other school i have visited suggest to understand how the school works i need to attend a speccial course the school runs . is there anyone out there who can clarify what exactly vedic maths is and why they believe in it and teach it and what the hell is a parenting course. I'm now deeply suspicious of them.

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Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:54 pm

shewolf - I discovered a bit about the verdic math in this thread
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/vi ... c&start=75

scroll down to my post near the bottom of the page.

apparently it is a load of bunkum.

given your gut feelings about the school I am surprised that you are still considering it. Are there no other good schools in the area?

grimep
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Postby grimep » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:12 pm

shewolff wrote:and what the hell is a parenting course. I'm now deeply suspicious of them.


PARENTING COURSE???? wtf?

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Postby a different guest » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:17 pm

they offer a "parenting course" at at least one of the schools here (think its the Melbourne one).

And the SES in Sydney advertise a course called "The Art of Parenting" (no doubt both ploys to suck more people into the SES).

daska
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Postby daska » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:18 pm

Would this be an SES based parenting course?! That's seriously scary.

But back to Vedic maths, if you get past the bunkum some of the techniques are fine - I do find I remember vertically and crosswise and it takes up less space on the paper. unfortunately it won't do for exams where you have to show your workings so it really needs to be taught in addition to standard maths rather than as a substitute

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:50 am

I did a bunch of Vedic math in my youth group in the US - it works really well, and it's not an SES-technique. It is akin to many ancient math techniques that actually work differently but many more easily than our current system. HOwever, since most of the world uses our current standard, both should be taught.

lowpass
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Postby lowpass » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am

Free Thinker wrote:I did a bunch of Vedic math in my youth group in the US - it works really well, and it's not an SES-technique. It is akin to many ancient math techniques that actually work differently but many more easily than our current system. HOwever, since most of the world uses our current standard, both should be taught.


Vedic maths was a creation of a Sankracharya and published in the 60's. I have the first edition. The maths are tricks and have nothing to do with the vedas, It's not ancient at all. There obviously was indian maths in the times of the vedas, but "vedic maths" is a modern fake invention.

found this to illustrate
http://www.tifr.res.in/%7Evahia/dani-vmsm.pdf

anti_ses
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Postby anti_ses » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:48 pm

lowpass wrote:The maths are tricks and have nothing to do with the vedas, It's not ancient at all. There obviously was indian maths in the times of the vedas, but "vedic maths" is a modern fake invention.

You may be right here (though some might disagree), but I'm sure you'll agree that the point of learning Vedic Maths is to improve mental arithmetic (which is still quite important, even today) and provide easy computational techniques.

grimep
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Postby grimep » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:46 pm

[quote="anti_ses]You may be right here (though some might disagree), but I'm sure you'll agree that the point of learning Vedic Maths is to improve mental arithmetic (which is still quite important, even today) and provide easy computational techniques.[/quote]


Strongly disagree. Why are you sure we'll agree? How many schools in the UK teach Vedic maths? How many top mathematicians at Oxford or Cambridge were taught Vedic maths at school? Utter rubbish.

anti_ses
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Postby anti_ses » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:06 pm

grimep wrote:How many schools in the UK teach Vedic maths?

Popularity is not a measure of worth.

grimep wrote:How many top mathematicians at Oxford or Cambridge were taught Vedic maths at school?

This is not surprisingly since there is very little opportunity to learn Vedic maths (see point above). Also, who said there is a correlation between the training of top Oxbridge mathematicians and the average student's level of elementary mental arithmetic?

grimep
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Postby grimep » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:54 pm

anti_ses wrote: Popularity is not a measure of worth.


Well, that's profound. One school (which is pretty damn odd on many levels already) out of .. what.. about seventeen thousand schools?? Mmmm.

Ok, moving on,

anti_ses wrote: Also, who said there is a correlation between the training of top Oxbridge mathematicians and the average student's level of elementary mental arithmetic?


Vedic maths is irrelevant. Look, mathswise at the school, I had to sit through Russell's bizarre and creepy Calligraphy/Geometry/The Absolute type lessons for starters... My taste of vedic maths was a rather pointless way of doing long multiplication, which seemed to offer no advantages over the long multiplication and long division I'd been doing since I was 6 years old.

So what exactly is the point of it? Other than its "vedic", and therefore good because it sounds like it might have floated down from guru beardy features off in the east somewhere?

Take it from me, vedic maths is pointless; unless its point is to give the students at the school another reason to feel different from kids at normal schools. Could that be the real reason it is used at St James? To emphasise how they are in some way "special"... to promote the feeling that they are party to some sort of special knowledge denied to kids at other schools.. a knowledge that is only to be found within the SES?


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