Any experiences with SES practices in Holland?

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
Piet van der Weijden
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Paul the match maker

Postby Piet van der Weijden » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:04 pm

Yes, Mr. Van Oyen was quite famous for his match making capacities. My sister, who stayed in the SES until the late nineties, has a lot of good friends who married a fellow SES student they got acquiainted with thanks to mediation by PvO. And most of these people - indeed - have good marriages, although all of them left the school in the mean time.

Maybe, now his banking and mining activities have failed, Mr. Van Oyen must start a marriage and dating agency :fadein:

But, no kidding, he certainly is a very talented man. He only has a difficult character. What I personally like about his work are his esoterical bible commentaries (on the gospel by St. Matthew for example). I use them when I prepare a sermon for the church in which I participate (sometimes seculars are allowed to preach the gospel over there). These commentaries are far from narrow-minded, on the contrary. They are a revelation if you are used to the dogmatic exegesis by the established christian churches.
Former SES-member in Holland (1979-1990)

Piet van der Weijden
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Web sites of Dutch SES

Postby Piet van der Weijden » Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:48 pm

About four years ago, some heavy conflicts took place within the Dutch SES branch School voor Filosofie. Eventually this lead to a split off by a group who wanted to remain loyal to the British mother school. Almost all the premises* of the school, including the name School voor Filosofie, however, were remained by the original foundation. This was the result of a legal verdict.

Since then the 'British loyalists' follow their lessons in classrooms that are rented from a ballet academy. This split off (which in fact is the 'real' SES) now is called: School voor Praktische Filosofie en Spiritualiteit (School for Practical Philosophy and Spirituality).

It is quite funny to compare the web sites of both the School voor Filosofie and the School voor Praktische Filosofie (etc.). Unfortunately only in Dutch text.

www.schoolvoorfilosofie.nl
www.praktischefilosofie.nl


Boith institutions claim to teach Adwaita, both praise Leon Mc. Laren. I think the 'Britisch loyalists' are not so happy with the fact that the School voor Filosofie still owns the famous :fadein: painting (or is it a reproduction) Of Sir by SES court artist Hardacker (?).

Since I do not any more have relatives or friends who follow their lessons at the School voor Filosofie, I am quite curious about what kind of activities nowadays take place in those expensive town houses in prestigious Amsterdam South. On their web sites they write about seminars about Dante and basic courses in philosophy, but de do not mention exact dates.

So, is the School voor Filosofie still alive and kicking or is it merely a real estate broker for the Amsterdam new age community?


* Except for Oxerhof mansion near Deventer, where residentials take place. Oxerhof mansion always has been an independent foundation.
Former SES-member in Holland (1979-1990)

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:33 am

on one of the sites I found reference to this book

The Tao of Pooh,


oh dear, Winnie the Pooh was in the SES?

I'm shattered, absolutely shattered.

Piet van der Weijden
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Pooh in SES?

Postby Piet van der Weijden » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:16 am

Well: Poohs popular yell 'Tumtumdeedalumtumtum' does indeed sound like some ancient mantra from the Veda's.
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van Oyens

Postby Shout » Sat Mar 05, 2005 1:30 pm

_____________________________________________________________
Last edited by Shout on Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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erikdr
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Oyen genealogy

Postby erikdr » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:28 pm

The van Oyens live in the Oxerhof mansion don't they

More or less. His website mentions (indirectly, through the designers) both Oxerhof and Obrechtstraat Amsterdam, the original family stronghold. Wellknown to many SES people because the maintenance duties there, compensated by the fact that the house was used for the TM initiations by Mr. White from London.

I once met the daughter of Paul & Doreen, Suzanne van Oyen,(is that correct?)

Probably either of Doreen and husband or of Paul and wife. We can accuse them of many things but not of brother-sister incest ;-)

Don't remember the names of Paul's kids but one sometimes saw them when they played near the house at the Breul, the residential centre which preceded Oxerhof.


I urge Piet to make contact with other ex-Plato school & ex-School voor Filosofie members and try to establish some sort of Exit-group network.


Interestingly enough, there are some informal networks. One being the 'School for Filosofie en Meditatie', a split-off of around 1990 so preceding the major split which Piet describes by some years. SFM is much more horizontal than the SES model (e.g. classes sitting in circles including the 'tutor' (they have different name for it)). But they DO have a link with Mr. White and successors in London for the initiation, probably through the SES sibling 'School of Meditation'.
Another one has no name but consists of a mailinglist of some 30-40, mostly men. They still have new age-type spiritual interests and sometimes invite a Hindu teacher. If Piet (or others) wants to get in touch with either of those they can e-mail me, but both are not clear exit-group networks because they unite people with SOME spiritual values while bashing the SES cult-programming..
With folded palms,

<Erik>

Piet van der Weijden
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Paul and Doreen are bro and sis, so not a married couple!

Postby Piet van der Weijden » Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:50 am

Amsterdam, march 5th, 2005

Well, Shout, you wrote us about the 'children of Paul and Doreen'. I think you made a mistake. As contributor Erik stated above, Paul and Doreen are brother and sister; the children of the Dutch SES founding couple, the late Franciscus and Toos van Oyen. So they can not be a married couple.

After having taken care of Leonardo Da Vinci (Big Mac) Mc. Laren's well being for many years in London, the still unmarried Doreen returned to Holland after 'Sir' passed away. Beg me pardon: after Sir's last incarnation...

About five years ago she left her native country (Holland) again. She married an Australian gentleman. I do not know who he is, but last night I asked my father (still in the 'British loyal' Dutch SES branch - the School for Practical Philosophy and Spirituality) if Doreen went to Australia indeed, and his answer was 'yes'.
Being a peripherical, in a sense even 'rebellious' member of the current Dutch (ex.) SES scene, my father did not know the name of miss Doreen Van Oyen's chosen broom Down Under.

My mother, who until today is much more involved into Dutch SES affairs, could not answer my question because at the moment she's following the 'English Week', the annual residential week at Oxerhof Mansion near Deventer, lled by Lambie. Standing apart form the regular Dutch residential weekends and weeks, this 'English week' residential is intended for the Dutch 'elite' of the eh... eh.... cult.

As far as I know, Mr. Paul van Oyen still is married to Mrs. Manon De la Rive Box. Her 'double' French family name suggests and even does pretend traces of nobility, but unfortunatley (?) she only is a 'common' like most other participants in this thread, myself including.

Paul and Manon van Oyen have got two dauthters, one of them is called Suzanne.
As far as I know, Paul, Manon and their family still live at Oxerhof Mansion in Deventer.

By the way: Paul and Doreen van Oyen's mother (and thus Suzanne's grandmother), the Dutch SES foudress Toos van Oyen, passed away in december 2004.

I never got acquainted to the Van Oyen's children. The last time I saw them - having left the Duch SES in the early nineties - was when they were playing on the greenwards of the former Dutch SES residential mansion De Breul near Zeist.

Kind regards,


Piet van der Weijden
Former SES-member in Holland (1979-1990)

PaGaN
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A different side of the story...

Postby PaGaN » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:59 pm

Deventer, march 15th 2005


You must all be wondering who this new fellow is, but don't bother, there's not a soul here that knows me. However, I would like to react to this subject, which started as a discussion on SES in the Netherlands, but turned out to be a garbage-throw-fest involving fam. Van Oyen.

Let me tell you in advance, that I do not know anything about the past of the Van Oyen family. What I do know, is that the stories I'm reading here about a few individual members of this family either are not or cannot be true. I draw this conclusion from both my own experience and my knowledge of the facts. This difference between fact and rumour is something i miss in the entire conversation in this thread.

I can support this remark with a few examples;
Shout wrote:I once met the daughter of Paul & Doreen, Suzanne van Oyen,(is that correct?) at Art-in-Action in the 90's. She seemed to be fairly normal, poor girl, although she was obviously vulnerable, and was slightly avoided by the other Plato School children, and knew all about the activities of her mother.

Piet van der Weijden wrote:As far as I know, Mr. Paul van Oyen still is married to Mrs. Manon De la Rive Box. Her 'double' French family name suggests and even does pretend traces of nobility, but unfortunatley (?) she only is a 'common' like most other participants in this thread, myself including.

Paul and Manon van Oyen have got two dauthters, one of them is called Suzanne.
As far as I know, Paul, Manon and their family still live at Oxerhof Mansion in Deventer.


* Mr. P. van Oyens wife is neither called Dorine/Doreen/Dorien, nore is she called Manon.
* Whether the double French name of Mrs. Van Oyen - De la Rive Box has traces of nobility, I do not know. I have not investigated this family history myself, but I assume you have neither. Therefor I think your conclusion is prejudiced.
* Paul and his wife do not have 2 daughters.

The so called "facts" mentioned by others and quoted by me above are not true. This makes me wonder about the reliability of the other "facts" mentioned about the Van Oyen family in this topic.
Furthermore I have read a number of things about Mr. P. van Oyen, which I really doubt. I'll try to explain why. I have come to know Mr. Van Oyen very well the last 3 to 4 years. My brother has known him a bit longer. I must admit that Mr. Van Oyen does not have the easiest personality to deal with. However he is perhaps the most honoust person I know. Therefor just as easily as Erikdr adjudges a higher value to other peoples' stories than to Mr. Van Oyen's, I reject other peoples' stories and do not in any way doubt Mr. Van Oyen's story of the past.

I could go on like this for quite some time, but i'll rap it up now. The only reason I replied to this topic, is that I cannot stand the injustice being done to some people mentioned in this topic. The Internet is full of crap like this. Never has Mr. Van Oyen reacted to any of this. Always has he tried to stop people in his surrounding from reacting. That's his style. That's the way he wants to go. It's just not mine...

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erikdr
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Oyen assets and liabilities

Postby erikdr » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:31 pm


* Mr. P. van Oyens wife is neither called Dorine/Doreen/Dorien, nore is she called Manon.
* Paul and his wife do not have 2 daughters.

The so called "facts" mentioned by others and quoted by me above are not true. This makes me wonder about the reliability of the other "facts" mentioned about the Van Oyen family in this topic.

I'm afraid you are mixing up minor and major statements.
The exact name (definitely not Dorien, that's his sister who now lives in Australia) is less relevant than her reputation. And what I heard here matches a bit with what I heard in my SES past.
And whether it's 1 or 2 or 3 kids - as far as I recall it's at least 2 and Suzanne is the name of one of them...


Furthermore I have read a number of things about Mr. P. van Oyen, which I really doubt. I'll try to explain why. I have come to know Mr. Van Oyen very well the last 3 to 4 years. My brother has known him a bit longer. I must admit that Mr. Van Oyen does not have the easiest personality to deal with. However he is perhaps the most honoust person I know. Therefor just as easily as Erikdr adjudges a higher value to other peoples' stories than to Mr. Van Oyen's, I reject other peoples' stories and do not in any way doubt Mr. Van Oyen's story of the past.

Well I did not state that as my sole basis. I stated that insofar other people's stories are in line with my own experiences I trust them.
Paul's story on his own website is, unfortunately for you, 'massaged facts' at best and bullshit lies at worst. I'm afraid that most of it is only in Dutch so in order to follow the discussion here you'd have to both quote literally from his site and give rough translation.
I'm talking especially about his statements on the breakup with SES/SvF.

All the best,
With folded palms,



<Erik>

Piet van der Weijden
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Mr. Paul van Oyen's wife

Postby Piet van der Weijden » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:58 am

Amsterdam, march 15th, 2005

Well, my dear fellow disputants,

I am quite sure that Mr. Paul van Oyen is still married to Mrs. Manon De La Rive Box.
I alluded to her 'double family name' in an ironic :fadein: way only, because within the SES a lot of people are so much concerned with social class, prestige and so on.

As far as I know, Mr. Paul Van Oyen and Mrs. Manon Van Oyen-De La Rive Box do indeed have two children of their own. One of them is called Suzanne.

I suddenly realize that it could be an embarassment for Suzanne to 'act' as a subject in an Internet forum like this.

If you read this, Suzy Van Oh, well I'm sorry for that.
Be sure that I am not against your family at all. On the contrary. My mother (still SES-member in Holland) is amongst those people who until today still visits your (Suzanne's) grandmother, Mrs. De La Rive Box (about 90 years old), at least once a week in her OAP home in Muiderberg, a small town near Amsterdam.

By the way: Mrs. De La Rive Box, this old lady, never has been an SES-member. She is in fact really a free thinker, a former socialist and a convinced democrat.

For the fierce pro-SES-contributants amonst you readers in this forum:

Although I am a former Dutch SES-member, and I am still fiercly against the SES-doctrine which was implemented in Holland during the eighties as such (especially within youth groups in Amsterdam), I do not want to harm the Van Oyen-family at all.

I just want to tell things that I've heard by my siblings who still are into the Dutch SES.
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Postby PaGaN » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:34 pm

Let me start by saying a few things about myself; I am not a follower of Mr. Van Oyen. I am a non believer (close observers may have noticed that from my nickname). To me spirituality is just another word in the dictionary. I have never been, nore will I ever be a part of the SvF or any other school that has a religious or spiritual affiliation.

Now back on topid;

Piet, I am glad to see you mention the fact that it wouldn't be nice for Suzy to be subject of an Internet discussion. That is in the first place what brought me to this board and later on urged me to react. This goes for both the discussion about her and her father. (By the way, her name really isn't Manon. Ask you mum :) )

As for Erikdr; you accuse me of mixing up major and minor statements. However that's not what I am doing. I was just trying to point out that a few of you really - let me just say it bluntly - suck at investigation. Judging from the errors made concearning so called minor statements. Therefor I doubt the credibility of any statement made here.
What bothers me in your writings, is that you insinuate a lot, but do not deliver any hard evidence. First you were "bashing" Dorine van Oyen, now it seems like you're out to soil the name of Mrs. Van Oyen - De la Rive Box. Before I thought you were talking about D. van Oyen's reputation and now all of a sudden you are talking about Mrs. MvO-DLRB. That's a bit confusing I think.

You state that Paul's story on his website is untrue (rough translation), but still you do not seem to know anything from your own experience (in this matter).

But since I do not want to dive into this matter any further, because the subject(s) is/are not here to defend themselves, I will rap up my post now.

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Postby Free Thinker » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:14 pm

PaGaN (yeesh! Why not regular letters?)

If you bother to look at the rest of this site, we are not hear to do an investigation - that's what the inquiry is for, although we may believe it to be inadequate. We are hear to discuss our experiences in whatever form of the SES we have been part of, to try to heal ourselves, and spread information about it. We are not investigative journalists attempting to write an expose on the school (that's already been done.) Of course people here are going to make mistakes since many of us were children when involved in the school, and especially given the secrecy of the school.

So get off our backs. If you'd like to point our mistakes and let us know where we CAN find the correct information, why not do that and be helpful?

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Postby PaGaN » Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:12 pm

Well Free Thinker, let me throw it back at you then...what's the sense in "discussing" if it can only be done in one direction?
The only thing that annoys me here, is that the discussion in this topic has become a bashparty towards one family. A family that's close to me. So do you blame me for getting on your backs?

You mention the fact that you're not here to investigate, but i assume this isn't some gossip site now is it? Because that's what (this topic at least) it is turning out to be...

P.S.: not everything can be found on the Internet...surprising in this day and age isn't it?

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Postby Free Thinker » Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:37 pm

Hi Pagan,

Well, I know nothing about the Dutch SvP or anyone in it but what I've gathered from this thread is that one of the Van O children was horribly controlled and emotionally-changed by Mr. Maclaren, obviously being caused to become so promiscuous by the school's horrible teachings on sex, sexuality and women. And that Paul van O was one of the school's matchmakers. It isn't a secret that the school promotes matches between younger women and older men (yes, they do it here in the US as well), nor is what they teach about women, sex, etc., a secret. It doesn't sound that bad what they say about Paul, and what they've said about Doreen is, in my opinion, really tragic. I don't take it that Doreen is at all a bad person but just proof of what happens when Mr. Maclaren controls someone. I feel really bad for her - she must have been very unhappy.

Yes, this thread does sound a little gossipy, although I can't answer to that because I don't know any of the people or school being discussed. As I said before, there's always a certain amount of gossip when dealing with such a secretive organization. Not that that is an excuse for gossip but you can't help but guess when no one will tell the truth.

I am happy for the discussion to go both ways if someone has any real answers. I asked before if you had information to counter what people were guessing here. Do you?

And lastly, you and your experiences are going to be a bit different from most of us here, who were either involved in one of the school's children's schools, or a member of one of the adult schools, and to many of us spirituality is not just another word in the dictionary. Therefore, what happened to us and how we were used in the name of spirituality means something quite different to us than it would to you. You may know the Van Oyens well but if you've never been part of the school, then you only know one side of them, and haven't seen how they play a role in the school.

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SvO!?

Postby Zilvermaantje » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:49 pm

changed post on 22 march 2005 on request...

[color=blue]This last contribution of Free thinker is a good starting
point for me to reply to this topic. It is a great shame that this
discussion does not appear to go much further than unsubstantiated
rumours, gossip, insinuation and slander. Nobody will feel better on
this basis, not even your lot because you are only activating your own
frustration and negative feelings.


I've erased the 'qoute'


Since my family and myself are subjects in this topic - my
part is a minor one, but there's a big role in it for my family - and
since I have been in the SvF myself, I think I am the right person to
put some counterweight in this discussion. You all think to be
well-informed about my family..... rather ironic: the opposite is true.
For those who don't know who I am... I am Suzanne, the daughter of mr.
P. van Oyen. I'm proud of him!. Not just cause he's my father....


The only thing I read here are rumours. Now I'd like to ask you all: did
any of you personally ask my father or aunt anything about the matters
discussed in this topic? I think, no, I KNOW the answer is NO. Do any of
you have the exact information from a person involved? I think again
the answer is NO. In my opinion you do not have the 'right to speak' if
you do not know exactly what you're talking about.


I've been in the SvF for quite a long time, so I know exactly what I'm
talking about. Initially I started out in the Prema- and Platoschool,
very extraordinary I must say. The funny thing is; I still have close
contact with many of my ex schoolmates, who support the same opinion. My
ex schoolmates also have their networks with other ex schoolmates.
Therefore I doubt that it has all been bad. On the contrary.


After that I have been a member of the "Youth groups" for a longer
period. Very interesting! We enjoyed the weekends and our tutors were
great. I have a lot of good memories from this period in time. Many of
us have left the organization some time ago but we still meet from time
to time and are in close contact.


Most of you are a lot older than I am and I do not share your negative
experiences. Every human being makes his own decisions. You're
responsible for your own actions. If you're not comfortable in your
current situation, you're the only one that can make a difference.
You'll have to change it yourself. Therefore I'd like to ask you all: If
it was all that bad, why did you stay?


I really regret the fact that some people here are so short minded.
Luckily Piet, PaGaN and Free Thinker tend to add some nuance to the
conversation and appear to be more balanced. Looking at the whole
discussion it is a shame that it appears nothing more than a "gossip
party". Because let's face it; if you're a real guy/woman, you discuss
something with the people whom it concerns instead of discussing it on
an Internet Messageboard anonymously (this doesn't go for all of you). I
am sure my father would be quite willing and happy to talk to all of
you. After all he has never given any comment except for the correct
statements on his website.



I think I have said what I wanted to say now. You may not agree with me,
but that's not necessary. After all, I don't agree with you either. I am
a 23 year old adult now. This reaction is my sole responsibility. I am
speaking for myself and not for anyone else in- or outside of my family.



Regards,
[color]
Suzanne van Oyen
Last edited by Zilvermaantje on Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Praten over anderen doe je alleen als je zelf niet interessant genoeg bent.


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