Us gay folk...

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: Us gay folk...

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:25 pm

Hi joeblogs,

It really saddens me when you say these things:

because even now, when I am almost 30 years old, I have trouble accepting my homosexuality... I feel guilty about it, and I constantly hope that somehow I will change and become 'normal'.

One day I’ll be happy to be me and gay and whatever, and the next I’ll want to be holier than thou and save the world and I have to find a woman in order to do this!


I guess early conditioning is hard to overcome. I don't really know, I never really had any. Or none that I couldn't fairly easily overturn. I have some gay friends who are currently having the time of their lives travelling. They gave up their jobs (almost on the spur of the moment), rented out their flat and are currently having the time of their lives in Vietnam. I have a couple of work colleagues who are lesbians. They are on career breaks and travelling in New Zealand. The point I'm trying to make is that gay people have more fun. They don't have the drag of wives/husbands and children to hold them back.

Embrace it. Enjoy it. Gay people make a tremendous contribution to society. We'd all be the poorer without their input.

Never mind what your parents think. Who cares. They're the past. You're the future. If you haven't already got a man I suggest you find one with all convenient speed (and bring one back for me while you're about it).

All power to you. You get my vote. Every time.

Jo-Anne

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Us gay folk...

Postby woodgreen » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:27 pm

Hi Joeblogs

Please stay with this forum. I recently joined, and yes it is difficult to read the accounts on here of abuse, but it is one way of letting the SES know that they have not got away with their attempted cover up. I am finally getting some help via my GP and counselling,after only a short time in this cult. For the people who grew up or spent many years with the SES I dread to think what state they could be in.
Your sexuality has nothing to do with the SES - they are not God despite McLaren's attempt at playing the role. Something I am picking up,(society is also reflected in the SES), is that the males in the SES "family" seem to continue in some form of denial about the School's blatent views and treatment of women ( especially single ones), gays, the disabled, other people's children,and anyone else who does not conform to some "norm" that the SES tried to impose. The people on this forum have said "no" to the SES and they don't like it. Well tough on them. And not tough love. The hand of the potter has not yet been tamed, Mr Boddy.
Sorry if this is a bit of a rant - my friend and cousin died last week and for some reason, no names no pack drills, I've been unable to shed a tear yet. Funeral tomorrow, maybe I'll cry then.

xx
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

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bonsai
Posts: 322
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Location: London

Re: Us gay folk...

Postby bonsai » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:11 pm

Woodgreen, My sympathies for your loss. Don't worry about not yet crying, grief is a strange thing and manifests in many different ways. Ranting is alright too.


woodgreen wrote:Something I am picking up,(society is also reflected in the SES), is that the males in the SES "family" seem to continue in some form of denial about the School's blatent views and treatment of women ( especially single ones), gays, the disabled, other people's children,and anyone else who does not conform to some "norm" that the SES tried to impose.

This is an interesting point. Certainly society is reflected in the SES and this is something that must always be remembered when judging the organisation. But here's the thing, the SES claims to have access to the teachings of the wise and claims therefore to know a little on the subject of morality and the path to liberation. Yet here we have, as the anecdote from joeblogs of Lambie's response to homosexuality and AIDs shows, an example of senior members of the SES passing judgement based on nothing more than society's prejudices. I would expect the organisations to have a considerably more advanced and tolerant view of such matters if it really had access to wisdom that was not generally available. Rather I think the SES is actually a haven where people can hold onto old fashioned prejudices and superstitions without these being challenged.

Bonsai

woodgreen
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby woodgreen » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:47 pm

Thanks Bonsai. I totally agree with your conclusion - old fashioned views can be comforting to those who hold them but obnoxious to those they "put down". My Dad is 79 and not particularly prejudiced in any way but he holds onto some old fashioned views which I have given up reacting to, because he sometimes says things deliberately to wind me up. He's never been near the SES but occasionally I wonder if they got through to him somehow! But then he was brought up a Catholic ! On which point, I too was raised and schooled as a Catholic in the 60s and 70s and I can honestly say that apart from the odd ruler on the hand, nothing like the kind of abuse recorded against the SES Schools went on. And certainly not the mind control games. My junior and senior schools were keen on educating girls and boys, not teaching Vedic rubbish. Yes they held on to some repressive ideas ( a classic was "don't wear patent shoes girls, they will reflect your underwear") but they didn't shoveI religion down our throats and I don't think anyone left the School damaged, unlike people on this site. And, unlike the James' Schools ( I've left off the Saint in protest -why dont they give the schools a Hindu name if they love all that stuff so much?) if parents decide to send their children to Catholic or other faith schools they at least know what to expect.
And And And - best go now I've had another little rant!
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

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bonsai
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby bonsai » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:00 am

woodgreen wrote: I too was raised and schooled as a Catholic in the 60s and 70s and I can honestly say that apart from the odd ruler on the hand, nothing like the kind of abuse recorded against the SES Schools went on. And certainly not the mind control games. My junior and senior schools were keen on educating girls and boys, not teaching Vedic rubbish. Yes they held on to some repressive ideas ( a classic was "don't wear patent shoes girls, they will reflect your underwear") but they didn't shoveI religion down our throats and I don't think anyone left the School damaged, unlike people on this site.

I disagree woodgreen. Personally I am as suspicious any faith based schools and think that your good experiences at a Catholic school are down to good fortune rather than any major differences in Catholicism and the SES. You only have to look at some of the abuse being talked about in Ireland at the current time to realise that there were plenty of Catholic based institutions where the recorded and acknowledged abuse exceeds what has been recorded at St James.

It is interesting how you describe you schooling though; you point out that "they were keen on education girls and boys". Herein lies the crux of the problem. St James goes wrong because giving their pupils a broad education that allows them to proceed and get ahead in the world is superceded by the idea that they have to put their pupils on a spiritual path to, in the case of the SES, full realisation. Any faith based education establishment runs the risk of putting the faith at the top of the stack. There is also a semantics problem here. St James would, no doubt, argue that introducing pupils to its spiritual beliefs is part of a broad education and then it all depends on what you mean by education.


woodgreen wrote: And, unlike the James' Schools ( I've left off the Saint in protest -why dont they give the schools a Hindu name if they love all that stuff so much?) if parents decide to send their children to Catholic or other faith schools they at least know what to expect.

I do agree with you that the St James name is misleading, however I don't believe that giving the school a hindu based name would necessarily enlighten parents of potential pupils as to the true goals of the SES education system.

Bonsai

joeblogs
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby joeblogs » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:23 am

I agree Bonsai. And what is really scary is that what the SES calls a spiritual path is more a path to complete separation from the real world. If you actually did everything they told you, meditated, got up at 3 or 4 in the morning, only ate fruit, bread and cheese, you'd end up so burnt out that you'd believe you actually had had some kind of miraculous spiritual experience. That's what happens on weeks, thats why people are so fascinated by the working surface and why they imagine they have experiences staring at it. I never once had one spiritual experience in the school. I had moments when I felt very close to everynbody there, I felt very special because I was on some special path that other people werent aware of, and therefor I was better than them, but I never actually felt the presence of god or anything close. And this is also refered to by cultwatchers as time control. You never have any time for yourself to think maybe this is all a bit crazy. So what the SES schools are getting their kids to do is head down a 'spiritual path' which will make them join the ses, give them time and energy, marry a nice SES girl and have happy ses kids to continue the cycle. What is ironic, and I think a very good ironic side effect of the SES and St James teaching of 'spirituality' is that by the time the kids come out of it most of them are so sick of being told what to think and do that they turn as far away from the school as possible. Most however do realise that it is important to be a good person, and if nothing else, this is a good thing. Its not what the school teaches, they teach you to seperate yourself from your emotions such as guilt and compassion. This is terrible! I cant think of anything worse than a world full of emotionless human robots! What is also funny, but a bit scary is that the school holds up the Roman Empire as an example to follow. This is an empire that spread itself through violence accross Europe, Africa and Asia, killing people who didnt do what they want or believed what they believed. No wonder the SES loves them. And they go on to say, and Ive heard this many times, that at the end of great empires there is more homosexuality and general sexual promiscuity and a lack of morals. Well I dont mind that to be honest. If the other option is that you get killed for being gay, or forced into a loveless marriage where everyone suffers. And also, what Empire are they talking about in our time? The British Empire? The one that killed and enslaved millions of people around thre world and left their countries in ruins, and made Africa and India the currupt holes of terrible poverty and suffering they are today? I don't mind that that Empire has gone either frankly. What do these people actually want? They say a return to traditional values? What like rascism, sexism and a foreign policy of exploitation and expansion at no matter what cost? We're already seeing this in the United States and I have to say it's not attractive. The SES says what we need is a Philosopher king. What, like Mr Lambie? Bloody hell, it would be a massacre! The SES stooges would kill or torture or do anything they wanted because they see Lambie as demi god who can do no wrong. And because theyd be so tired and brainwashed and detached from emotion they could do whatever they wanted, and thing they were doing something good! The day the SES or an organization like that takes over the world is the day I jump overboard!

Tootsie
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby Tootsie » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:42 am

Joeblogs said 'I never once had one spiritual experience in the school.' My question would be, has anybody had a spiritual experience in school? Very few I think! My 14 years listening to experiences given in groups would confirm this, including myself.

bluemoon
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Megalomania

Postby bluemoon » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:13 pm

Joeblogs wrote:

I felt very special because I was on some special path that other people werent aware of, and therefore I was better than them


This is one of the most important issues I think.
Last edited by bluemoon on Thu May 24, 2012 1:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

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bonsai
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby bonsai » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:57 pm

joeblogs wrote:If you actually did everything they told you, meditated, got up at 3 or 4 in the morning, only ate fruit, bread and cheese, you'd end up so burnt out that you'd believe you actually had had some kind of miraculous spiritual experience. That's what happens on weeks, thats why people are so fascinated by the working surface and why they imagine they have experiences staring at it. I never once had one spiritual experience in the school.

What is a spiritual experience. Without a doubt the regimes and practices of the SES induce physiological experiences that may or may not be healthy or beneficial. Some people may indeed regard these are spiritual feelings and experiences but how do we know? To me the SES is like a drug dealer pushing product on innocents with no concern as to the harmful effects may occur in those who take it.


joeblogs wrote: What is ironic, and I think a very good ironic side effect of the SES and St James teaching of 'spirituality' is that by the time the kids come out of it most of them are so sick of being told what to think and do that they turn as far away from the school as possible.

It's interesting you say this. I wrestle with this one. Is St James a victim of its own success in that it does effectively teach children to grow in to thoughtful discriminating adults who then spot the contradictions in what is being preached and then leave, or is it as you say that children just have an aversion to perpetual promotion of the philosophy?


joeblogs wrote: Most however do realise that it is important to be a good person, and if nothing else, this is a good thing. Its not what the school teaches, they teach you to seperate yourself from your emotions such as guilt and compassion. This is terrible! I cant think of anything worse than a world full of emotionless human robots!

It is exactly the detachment that the teaching promotes that permits good people to do things that cross the boundaries of their natural human morality. It is this that allows the abuse that occurred within St James and makes everyone in the SES vulnerable to abuse.


bluemoon wrote:Donald Lambie et al need to take a long hard look in the mirror and learn so see the funny side of themselves, before its too late. There is so much in what you describe there in your last post Joeblogs, and I think your analogies are spot on. This is why I still think the organisation can be very dangerous, and needs to take a long hard look at itself and its ideas and methods, as Marco Goldschmeid recommended in his 1996 report.

I fully agree. Because of the nature of the SES organisation and its core belief system based on the oral tradition and deference to the teacher, the SES and its affilliated organisations remain dangerous.

Bonsai

Tootsie
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby Tootsie » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:51 pm

Watched a TV program on Four Corners the other night about Scientology. Chilling portrait of life inside the organisation. Now that is a dangerous organisation. Their spokesperson knew nothing of the allegations that were brought up. Reminded me a lot of the leadership in the SES. We know nothing!

joeblogs
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby joeblogs » Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:34 pm

bonsai]'What is a spiritual experience. Without a doubt the regimes and practices of the SES induce physiological experiences that may or may not be healthy or beneficial. Some people may indeed regard these are spiritual feelings and experiences but how do we know? To me the SES is like a drug dealer pushing product on innocents with no concern as to the harmful effects may occur in those who take it. [/quote]

Good point. The people I saw over my many years in the school, some of who bordered on the point of insanity, were there because they couldn't leave. It was all they knew. They'd been in the school for so long they were obsessed by it, and needed it, like a drug as you say.


[quote="bonsai]It's interesting you say this. I wrestle with this one. Is St James a victim of its own success in that it does effectively teach children to grow in to thoughtful discriminating adults who then spot the contradictions in what is being preached and then leave, or is it as you say that children just have an aversion to perpetual promotion of the philosophy? [/quote]

I was a student in St James for 2 years, and I later worked for 6 months in one of the day schools. I saw different extremes. I saw one kid, who has grown up to be an absolute nutcase, I find him arrogant and mad, and he was like this at school too. He has basically modelled himself on an older member of the school, one who I also find repulsive and arrogant, because of his indifference to everything other than his own power. Well, maybe thats a bit harsh but he seems to think he's the best thing ever, and that Mozart, espeically his interpretations of Mozart, really were the most amazing thing ever. And he treated me like a little kid even though I was 24 years old... I was on the point of punching him one day when he ordered me to clean my shoes, and told me that I HAD to wear a suit to meetings, not just a woollen jersey, out of reverence to the teaching. Or maybe he meant to him? Arrogant wanker! He is an absolute example of the kind of blind arrogance you find in the SES. Anyway, I digress. This kid has grown up the same way. At the same time, one of my best friends, an amazing, lovely, friendly, caring person spent his whole schooling in ST James school. He now works in human rights and I think is one of the only people I know who I really deeply respect as a good human being. The people coming out of the school can go both ways. My personal experience of St James is that it has some good things, and some bad things. There were no non-ses teachers when I was there, but there was also very little indoctrination going on. The teaching was either very good or pretty pathetic. I think one particular English teacher should have left the school a long time ago, with his tail between his legs… because of him I really don’t like Shakespeare. And as for the music teacher… well I don’t think I’ve met a more unpleasant woman in my life. A real mad cow who from day one made me, and many other students feel like absolute shit. How she ever got a job in the first place I don’t know. She treated the other teachers as badly as the students! Anyway I joined the Foundation Group, because a few of my friends were in it. I still believed at that point that the school taught practical philosophy, which I had actually found quite useful as a kid, when I learnt to watch my emotions and control my anger. This practical philosophy is nothing special. A friend of mine has a Doctorate in Philosophy and he told me that these are just self-help techniques, based on doctrines that philosophers have come up with over the years. Anway, I loved most of the people in the Foundation group, except the tutor of course, cos we could smoke and laugh. I didn’t enjoy the philosophy because its not philosophy. They were telling us to believe in something that was so far from my personal experience that I really couldn’t. I don’t believe in god, or spirits. But they got into my head, I think, as I somehow just assumed they were good, because my parents always seemed to me to be good people, so the organization they belonged to must also be good. What is quite funny is that at the initiation ceremony to the Foundation group they got us so damn drunk that when they sent us out to dig holes afterwards I was toppling over everywhere. I reckon that’s why they do it, so you don’t have second thoughts when you’re doing hard labour.
Anyway, while I was in the foundation group and at the school, I went through a period of unbelievable depression. I was close to killing myself many times, mostly because of the contradiction of being gay and what the school taught but also other things I cant really put my finger on. Adolescence is always a hard time, and when you chuck mind-control techniques and other high old fashioned moral values on top on that, it can be a lethal mix. Luckily I had good friends, and I got through it. But what surprises me is no one, not one teacher, ever noticed that I was depressed. And I think it must have been quite obvious. My parents did a bit, in fact my mum once told me to stop being so gloomy and depressed as it was a bad influence on my sister. What the hell? Why the hell didn’t it occur to her to ask me WHY I was depressed? Well, because it was obviously a problem I had, and as I was over 16, I just had to deal with it. The SES teaches you to worry about your own problems, and not other peoples… even your kids’ Yeah, I dealt with it, and 10 years later I’m finally coming to terms with the fact that I’m gay!
I also mentioned that I worked in a ses affiliated school. The little kids were sweet, normal kids… most of them. But as is normal, about the age of 12 or 13 they became a bit harder to deal with. And out of a group of 15 kids maybe, not one liked the philosophy, liked the teaching, liked pausing, liked sanscrit. They were all bored to hell with it. I don’t know how they turned out finally, I could see some of them going down a nasty track of drugs, but then again that’s common for school kids everywhere, not just in SES schools. But I think its becoming rarer and rarer for kids from the SES schools to continue because they really can’t stand the stuff anymore. Incidentally, I saw a documentary about Scientology, and a little girl who was bought up in one of there schools. And Scientology really is a cult. I mean it was created by a science fiction writer, what more proof do you need? Anyway, these kids were made to do exactly the same stuff as people do on SES residentials. Carry stuff, work really hard, get up early and do volunteer work for long hours in the name of spiritual fulfillment. Really quite scary.


[quote="bonsai] It is exactly the detachment that the teaching promotes that permits good people to do things that cross the boundaries of their natural human morality. It is this that allows the abuse that occurred within St James and makes everyone in the SES vulnerable to abuse. [/quote]

Yes. It’s terrifying, I have to say. Luckily it’s quite difficult to get rid of every trace of human decency so hopefully people will never obey evil orders from the school like bashing gays etc. Having said that, another good friend of mine is in the school and I still respect him. Its not hard to talk to him, he’s not to preachy. I just hope they don’t change him. And he has not problem with homosexuals.

[quote="bluemoon wrote:
Donald Lambie et al need to take a long hard look in the mirror and learn so see the funny side of themselves, before its too late. There is so much in what you describe there in your last post Joeblogs, and I think your analogies are spot on. This is why I still think the organisation can be very dangerous, and needs to take a long hard look at itself and its ideas and methods, as Marco Goldschmeid recommended in his 1996 report.

bonsai wrote: [I fully agree. Because of the nature of the SES organisation and its core belief system based on the oral tradition and deference to the teacher, the SES and its affilliated organisations remain dangerous.


If Lambie ever looks in the mirror he must see a grown man who is married to a strange but not unattractive woman, lives in a house he doesn’t pay for, is revered by 100s of people around the world, for whom his word is as good as that of god. Why the hell would he want it any other way? It could turn out to be as dangerous as other cults have in the past, or it could just fade away. Hopefully the latter, for the good of everyone!
Last edited by joeblogs on Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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bonsai
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby bonsai » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:24 pm

joeblogs wrote:If Lambie ever looks in the mirror he must see a grown man who is married to a strange but not unattractive woman, lives in a house he doesn’t pay for, is revered by 100s of people around the world, for whom his word is as good as that of god. Why the hell would he want it any other way?


..and so power corrupts.

Bonsai

bluemoon
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Mrs L

Postby bluemoon » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:46 am

I just wanted to put in a good word for Mrs L. I did not know her personally, just through her being around, although she did come to talk to my group once. I found her to be a delightful creature, gentle and kind and genuinely a lovely lady - hard working too. She was married very young too I think.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

joeblogs
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby joeblogs » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:35 pm

I wonder if there is some kind of list somewhere of the different stages you go through after leaving something like the SES. So far I have gone through intense hate, shame, regret (for the few things I did enjoy in the school like friends), back to hate, depression, acceptance doubt (of what I actually believe) and a few more to boot probably. Not necessarily in that order. What I find most hard to accept is that all the things they do are done in the name of ‘goodness’, making man-kind better. I don’t know if it is possible to make mankind better. We are the way we are. There are very obvious limits to mankinds ability to be ‘good’. ‘Good’ is also a very personal thing, what is good for someone may be bad for someone else, as we can see in the difference between moral values in the East and the West. This maybe why people try and look beyond this to spirituality. I’ve been reading up a bit on Gurdjiev’s, and I don’t know if I would have chosen him as an example to follow. He was a drunkard, he loved to tell stories (his father was a professional story-teller- reminds me a bit of the founder of Scientology), and he was looking for something beyond the realms of human experience. I think this is the problem… drugs could be said to be beyond ‘normal’ human experience, and as has been mentioned before, the ses is like a drug, and afterall, religion is the opium of the masses. Gurdjiev’s earliest spiritual experiences were all based around religion or superstition- very strange things that I wouldn’t want as the base for a school of philosophy.

Bonsai, yeah, I agree, power corrupts, and most of all it corrupts thoughts and the use of reason and common sense! George Bush and Tony Blair probably honestly thought they were right in invading Iraq, if not for WMDs then for oil, and in the name of God (That may be naïve, but I cant stand either of them, so my judgement is slightly blurred). The worst crimes are committed by people who are absolutely convinced they are right, and this blinds their judgement.

And Bluemoon, I think that Mrs Lambie could be one of the worst victims of the school. I don’t know if she was forced to marry but it wouldn’t surprise me. And being forced to live in the shadow of a man who believes all emotions are evil can’t be easy.


Finally, Joe-Anne, I never thanked you for what you said to me… I appreciate it… I haven’t yet found a man, nor one for you, but I’ll keep an eye out for you.

See you in court
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Re: Us gay folk...

Postby See you in court » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:22 pm

Exerpts from

Repairing The Soul After A Cult

By Janja Lalich, Ph.D.

at http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_articl ... g_soul.htm

"It is our very core, our very belief in ourself and our commitment, it is our very faith in humankind and the world that is exploited and abused and turned against us by the cults. [...] Whether your cultic experience was religious or secular, the realization of such enormous loss and betrayal tends to cause considerable pain. As a result, afterwards, many people are prone to reject all forms of belief. In some cases, it may take years to overcome the disillusionment, and learn not only to trust in your inner self but also to believe in something again. [...] After a cult experience, when you wake up to face the deepest emptiness, the darkest hole, the sharpest scream of inner terror at the deception and betrayal you feel, I can only offer hope by saying that in confronting the loss, you will find the real you. And when your soul is healed, refreshed, and free of the nightmare bondage of cult lies and manipulations, the real you will find a new path, a valid path a path to freedom and wholeness. "


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