adult school U.K - dont know what to think!

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
vix
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Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:34 pm
Location: BRISTOL - UK

adult school U.K - dont know what to think!

Postby vix » Sat Nov 12, 2005 4:35 pm

Hiya!

I go to the U.K adult school/evening class and have been for about 2 years... i'm feeling really confused at the moment and not sure whether to keep going.

My tutor is putting us forward for meditation next term and obviously the 'donation' was mentioned which is when i started looking on the internet for info. The suggested 'donation' is 1 weeks wages which i think is ridiculous and have told them as much, i have had a few talks with my tutor and his tutor and have had advise like everything has to be paid for?! and i will have to live with it for the rest of my life if i feel i have given too little.... also that people who do meditation are a certain kind of people - they have genorosity of spirit....

i am partly bothered by the money cos i cant afford it but i think even if i could i would still be unsure, as i dont see what it is needed for (apparently for upkeep of the building and advertising the SOM!?)


it was the meditation problem that got me wondering about whether i was doing the right thing which is when i found all this! i was sort of thinking that what i signed up for wasnt what i was getting anymore and it seems im not the only one who feels this. it seems that all problems come back to one answer - Do the excercise (coming to the present moment etc) and there doesnt seem to be much room for free thought anymore!

Can anyone post a reply? i dont know what to think!!!!

katinka1969
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Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

adult school U.K - dont know what to think!

Postby katinka1969 » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:59 pm

Hi Vix

It's remarkable to log on tonight and see your message - I too have been with the London SES for two years, and after some rather bizarre happenings I did some surfing and found this site. While much of what I've read here has been a terrible shock, other things have confirmed that my growing unease with the SES was not unfounded.

Speaking of meditation, my classmates went to their initiations and "interviews" this afternoon. I declined to be initiated for many reasons - like you the money thing really irked me but on top of that, the pressure I've received from my tutors and even from a fellow classmate (who I've now come to believe may have a hidden agenda) was quite unnerving.

I gather that you are probably a term or two behind me, I am now doing "Philosophy 7", and this term we are covering the subject of "devotion". Though in the past I've questioned some of the teachings, this term I feel, again like you, that I'm not getting what I signed up for, and any questions or challenges to the material are evaded with urgings to practise the "exercise" and all will be well. Have you been told about next week's "study day"? Apparently this wonderful day will give us, among other things, the privilege of making tea/coffee/lunch and doing various manual cleaning tasks in the building. Oh and music - which may include "chanting". When I mentioned that I couldn't come because I am attending a birthday celebration for a friend, the aforementioned hidden agenda classmate became quite insistent that I try and make it, even suggesting that I bring my friend along (!?!) or attend the study day and go to the birthday celebration later!

I think I may stay on this term purely out of curiosity, to see where things are headed. Some of my classmates seemed a bit perturbed today by the fact that they were given virtually no information about what they would face at their interview and initiation, and bizarrely when they asked the tutor what they could expect, she claimed that she didn't know what it would involve! So I gather that it's forbidden to discuss the details - quite creepy really. Something else I noticed today was that the tutor's assistant was very obviously checking out the clothing of all the women who were due to be initiated - the one girl who wore a pretty skirt appeared to get a nod of approval. Ick.

Anyway to sum up, I would also love to get some replies from people who've been there, done that.

Thanks in advance!

Daffy
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Postby Daffy » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:31 pm

katinka1969 wrote:I would also love to get some replies from people who've been there, done that.

Vix and Katinka,

By now you are seeing the basic elements of a cult come together: the subtle but effective pressure to conform, the feeling of being excluded from the community if you don't toe the line, the 'requests' for money, the 'work makes you free' work ethic, the slow isolation from outside influences, the use of ritual and the inability to get straight answers from anyone in the organisation.

A big part of you is saying "I didn't join a cult, I'm not gullible enough to do that". And you're right - if you were that gullible you wouldn't be here, at a major checkpoint in your future in the SES, asking on an Internet forum whether you should proceed.

Many of the contributors to this forum have seen or experienced the harm caused by the SES. I suspect the SES of the 21st century doesn't have quite as nasty an edge as that under its deceased vile leader, Leon McLaren, but it is no less dangerous for that. Long time members, such as my parents, have little spare time for anything not SES-related. They spend an hour a day on meditation, a significant chunk of the day, attend weekly 'philosophy' classes and frequent cleaning days, two weekends and one full week every year at the SES retreat at Nanpanton, etc etc. I have no idea what it all costs them.

While you are still able to question what is going on, you should get out of it now. There are many other ways to study real philosophy.

nomad
Posts: 24
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:31 am
Location: NY

Postby nomad » Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:44 pm

If you are curious, you can stick with it and give no more than 60 pounds as your donation or whatever you want. No one says anything to you, the check gets folded and put in a basket and your other offerrings on the initiation day ceremony, like fruit, white handkerchief and six flowers get put in another basket, this basket is the one that you carry with you for the actual ceremony. Probably no one looks at it except the head of the school. They don't like cash, only checks, I wonder why? Maybe they use it as a charitable donation or they get some sort of tax break from it? Somewhere else I read, they were being investigated for tax reasons. Our tutor in NY has said to give a weeks wages or what you spend in a week if you don't work. Who knows whether or not you work? The interesting thing is that when you are getting ready to sign up for your initiation ceremony like two weeks before I heard they give you a handout that you need to fill out where they ask you for your occupation, Duh! I wonder why? So if you write doctor, I'm sure they expect a big bucks donation! They're probably also trying to figure out how you fit in in terms of what service you can do for them. For example, if you're a painter, you can paint their walls, you're into construction, well they need a new front door, etc. I think you should read the other threads like: NYC Adult School of Practical Philosophy Oct "05. Also, Greetings X-SPP member from NYC thread, but read this one straight through the end. It will be interesting to see what you think after all that!

Katinka, I was curious what type of interview do you have to go to? I have not heard of this happening in NY?

katinka1969
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

adult school U.K - dont know what to think!

Postby katinka1969 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:44 pm

Daffy,

Many thanks for your reply ? it?s very useful indeed to have such feedback and reassurance from someone with vast experience.

It?s interesting to hear you describe this as a major checkpoint in our time at the SES, because I couldn?t have put it better myself ? that is exactly what it feels like. And I also had the reaction of being horrified that I could have been taken in by a cult masquerading as a school of philosophy, it is however reassuring to know that they have not managed to brainwash me, it gives me faith in my own strength and individuality.

While things certainly appear to have improved considerably since the McLaren days, it could also be said that the biggest change is that the methods have become a lot more subtle and hence hard to detect before it?s too late ? so possibly more sinister than in times gone by. Your description of how your parents? lives are governed by their SES involvement says it all really, and I feel desperately sad for everyone who has been denied a close relationship with their parents because of this.

The ?work makes you free? ethic is particularly chilling, especially knowing the origin of that expression. I could hardly keep my countenance yesterday when the tutor?s assistant said, with a huge smile, what a lovely day we?d all have together polishing, dusting and scrubbing various parts of the building. Not that I?m averse to cleaning ? I would do and have done it willingly in the name of a good cause but this certainly ain?t it.

And there certainly are ways to study real philosophy, which I will be looking into.

Thanks again.

katinka1969
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

adult school U.K - dont know what to think!

Postby katinka1969 » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:49 pm

Nomad,

Thanks also for your reply, and your recommendations of other threads to read ? the content has added yet more reason for me to get out now. The hierarchical structure, the gender stereotypes, the irony that the people in the ?higher? levels of the school depend on having their egos fed voraciously, the list goes on.

Your description of the meditation initiation highlights some of the reasons why I?ve declined to take part. When I joined the SES they did mention that eventually we would have the ?opportunity? to meditate, however it was always implied that it would be entirely optional. It?s obvious now that this was all part of the bait and hook, the idea being that by the time you actually get to the stage of initiation, you?ll be so brainwashed and compliant that you?ll just go along with it. I was pressured by my tutor and her two assistants and on each occasion, after outlining my reasons for not wanting to do it, they seemed dumbfounded and at a loss for words ? perhaps this is indicative of how rare it is to reach this stage of the school and still be able to think for oneself.

The main reason I have a problem with the money thing is that they have the audacity to ask for a week?s wage and describe it as a ?gift?. While I take your point that one could give less money and no-one would know, that wouldn?t really work in our class as our occupations have often been discussed either in the lesson or at break time, and therefore if I didn?t give an amount that reflects roughly what I earn, they would know. Anyway it really is the principle involved that bothers me, and aside from that I couldn?t in good conscience give them any more money than I already have. Another issue I have is that being ?initiated? into anything does not sit well with me, it?s not what I signed with the SES for, in fact if I may include a quote written by yourself in the Greetings ? X-SPP member from NYC thread ?how do you feel about them teaching you Philosophy for the first few semesters and then pulling a switch on you and have you praying to a Hindu God?? That just about sums it up perfectly for me ? I don?t pray to any god, it?s not my thing and I really resent that they are trying to trick me into doing it.

As for the interview I mentioned in my original post, I don?t know what it entails ? I get the impression that it?s something of a curve-ball because even my classmates firstly had no idea that they were booked in for an interview (they only found out when the tutor gave them an appointment card) and they also had no idea what the interview would involve. It sounds dodgy to me, when you think about it the very nature of any interview is for the interviewer to glean information about the interviewee, plus it?s all about how the interviewee presents him or herself. Anyway when I said goodbye to my classmates, I wished them luck and one of them said she?d tell me all about it next week ? however I imagine she?ll be forbidden to reveal any details!

bluelight
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Postby bluelight » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:23 am

As a former pupil of St James I read the above comments with no surprise, I would, however, like to make a suggestion of compromise.

Firstly why not ask to see audited accounts of the SES and associated schools, as I understand it the organisation is awash with funds, perhaps your money could go to a more deserving cause?

Secondly the ethos of the SES is allegedly, "sacrifice", and therefore the issue is not who you donate your money to but the fact you have donated it in the first place. I suggest the NSPCC or Childline, but please feel free to make up your own mind.

If the amount of money you would have to donate would cause you hardship then why not donate half a days salary, to a suitable charity every month, for the next 10 months..... and produce a receipt for your alleged tutor on a monthly basis? As the SES is such a "compassionate and understanding" entity I am sure they would find this acceptable. I am sure we are all aware of the parable of "the widows mite".

Please put these proposals to the relevant persons and post their replies in here..... I am sure it would make interesting reading. Alternatively ask them directly to reply in this forum........after all.... they have nothing to hide do they???

Bluelight

nomad
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Location: NY

Postby nomad » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:27 am

Well who cares what they think!? Do we really need to justify to them what we are doing with our money?! I say go for the intiation and give them very little! Have the experience and not the sacrifice! There are many other deserving true charities! This is not a true charity!!!!!!!! This is a school which engages in false advertising to further their own needs! It is based on falsehoods! Opposite to everything they start out teaching! I bet the only reason Mclaren had a falling out with the Maharishi is because that old Indian guy wanted $$$$$$$
He is so loaded, it is a disgrace!

Katinka, please make an annoucement in class and let your fellow students now about this web page, let them read it and make their own decisions! I'm sure many will be following in your footsteps! I feel sorry for those that stay! The only thing your fellow clasmates cannot tell you about is the mantra, if they want to be true to what they've witnessed.....everything else they can repeat!!!!!!!! You can read all about the mantra: R-ahm in other postings! hahaha

Someone should write to the BBC and let them know what is going on! This is awful!

By the way, I am not averse to cleaning either, just not when you tell how, when and for how long and to do this under the false concept of"this is philosophy in action!" PLEASE SPARE ME! You write very eloquently by the way! Please pursue real philosophy; this is rubbish to be subservient to them and their needs!

Bluelight, It would be very interesting to see someone from the school post here, I doubt they would and if they did, who knows if it would be sincere? I don't think we need to answer to them in terms of what $$$ we donate elsewhere. It is none of their business.

ross nolan
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Location: Melbourne Australia

eyes opening in the UK

Postby ross nolan » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:13 pm

Good to see some emerging realizations of the deceptive nature of the 'school of sophistry' in the UK -- I would like to hear of similar "dropping of the scales" from the eyes of inductees in Australia and elsewhere and an expression of a comparable sense of having been deceived and misled with also the idea of doing something to bring well deserved retribution to the organization behind it .

There is no real question of the (pseudo) religious nature of the SOP and yet they do not disclose or even disavow their real agenda when challenged and advertise in public places (railway,newspapers etc ) in a manner which is clearly "misleading and deceptive"

By taking money for their "services" they are in trade and hence are breaching fundamental tenets of the trade practices legislation -- no doubt also in the UK under very similar laws -- simply, you have been "had" and feel 'dissatisfied' as customers .

I suggest you do more than share your experiences but go ahead and lodge a formal complaint just like as if you had bought a 'bodgy' appliance or some misrepresented product -- surely messing with people's minds is more important than some poorly manufactured gadget that wasn't worth the money you spent on it ?

Bring consumer protection laws to bear on this nefarious body and let the government agencies bring them to rights -- I would suggest a class action might be appropriate and attractive to some aspiring lawyer ......

The other aspect of soliciting money from people as a 'gift' might also breach fundraising legislation -- certainly they are not a public service or any other definable charitable organization and they would likely be breaking the 'fundraising appeals act' in Australia and no doubt something comparable in the UK ( bordering on begging with menaces )

I was myself not drawn in past the intial 12 week course but jibed at the incredibly clumsy and obviously slanted anti western, mystical , religiositysoaked and later eastern 'faux' philosophy apparent after even the second week .
I do not have first hand experience of the later more overtly cultish aspects of the SOP but every account confirms your misgivings and statements of fact -- implausible denials of any "initiation rights", week's pay donations and mantras etc by the lecturer here were given when one (English - newly arrived from the UK ) student put it to the lecturer .

The poignant, but totally fabricated, "great speech of Chief Seattle" was also espoused by that lecturer earlier and my challenging it's legtimacy and later supply of documentary proof that it was in fact written by an Irishman in about 1970 and contains numerous instances of completely impossible "fact" and more significantly is an anti western,anti intellectual, anti rational etc rant designed to belittle everything characteristic of the western developed world in favour of the fallacious "noble savage" ideal .--- for a body so overtly devoted to "the truth" and complete honesty and 'love of wisdom' it seemed completely incompatible to be knowingly peddling lies .

(see earlier threads for detail )

I urge you to follow through and make a difference so that other naive but sincere people are not similarly intellectually defrauded.

Go to it.

Regards, Ross
Skeptic

Matthew
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Postby Matthew » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:57 pm

nomad wrote:It would be very interesting to see someone from the school post here, I doubt they would and if they did, who knows if it would be sincere?

Actually I'm sure quite a few have, judging by the tone and content of some posts. I mention no names! Plants even... :squarewink:

daska
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Location: UK

Postby daska » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:03 pm

I remember my initiation. Fruit, a whole week's pocketmoney and I had to spend out on a white hanky as well which was, as I remember about the same as another week's pocketmoney! So what that it was only a quid or whatever at the time, it was my money! And I didn't get a choice. 2 weeks pocketmoney for a 3 letter word!

At least you get the opportunity to make a choice...

:-)

katinka1969
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Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

Postby katinka1969 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:40 pm

Bluelight said:
Firstly why not ask to see audited accounts of the SES and associated schools, as I understand it the organisation is awash with funds, perhaps your money could go to a more deserving cause?

Secondly the ethos of the SES is allegedly, "sacrifice", and therefore the issue is not who you donate your money to but the fact you have donated it in the first place. I suggest the NSPCC or Childline, but please feel free to make up your own mind.


Bluelight, your suggestions, however tongue-in-cheek you may intend them to be, are just brilliant. While I imagine they?d only willingly let us see their accounts when hell freezes over, the charity idea in particularly would be well worth doing if only to see the dumbfounded glassy-eyed look I would get from my alleged (LOL!) tutor and her minions upon hearing such an thing! It proves how easy it is to pick holes in their ?philosophy?, they really would have no plausible comeback to a suggestion that falls so neatly in line with their teachings of sacrifice, avoidance of attachment etc.

That said, I think they may have given up on me as a lost cause now, so will probably not harass me any further on the subject. I think however that I will put the charity suggestion to my classmates, who are all otherwise intelligent people who didn?t seem to see anything odd about being asked to give an unconfirmed amount of money to an unconfirmed recipient, in return for an interview and initiation, the details of which were also unconfirmed. I allow myself to hope that they may not be too far gone to see that it is outrageous to be giving money to an organisation who has no need of it and will not put it to any kind of good use, when there are so many honourable charities who desperately need all the funds they can get. I guess from there it is entirely up to them what they decide to do.

Anyway I?ve now made the decision that I?m finishing up with the SES very soon, probably before this term is over as I can?t keep up the pretence now that I?ve discovered the sordid truth behind the whole thing. It?s quite a liberating feeling, which is in a way also a bit unnerving because I honestly do feel that I?m escaping from something that could potentially have caused me great harm. However I will attend next Saturday to firstly find out whatever details I can from my classmates on what they thought of the initiation process, and secondly to tell them what I?ve discovered here.

katinka1969
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Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

Postby katinka1969 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:44 pm

Nomad said:
Well who cares what they think!? Do we really need to justify to them what we are doing with our money?! I say go for the initiation and give them very little! Have the experience and not the sacrifice! There are many other deserving true charities!

Nomad, of course we do not need to justify to them or anyone what we do with our money - even when they offered me the option of an IOU if my reason for not taking part in the initiation was due to financial woes, I took offence at the intrusion and let them know as much in calm but firm words. Anyway for me the money is only part of it - even after reading on the forum that the initiation is not actually that scary, I still take strong exception to the requirement that one must be initiated into anything when the only thing we ever signed up for was a philosophy class. In actuality I am very interested in meditation, but will only pursue it on my terms.

The only thing your fellow classmates cannot tell you about is the mantra, if they want to be true to what they've witnessed.....everything else they can repeat!!!!!!!!

Thanks for this advice - it?ll be interesting to see just how much they do tell me, bearing this in mind!

By the way, I am not averse to cleaning either, just not when you tell how, when and for how long and to do this under the false concept of"this is philosophy in action!"

?Philosophy in action!? !?!?!! Who on earth comes up with this stuff?

You write very eloquently by the way! Please pursue real philosophy

Many thanks for the compliment! And real philosophy is exactly what I intend to pursue!

katinka1969
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:36 pm

Postby katinka1969 » Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:48 pm

Ross said:
By taking money for their "services" they are in trade and hence are breaching fundamental tenets of the trade practices legislation -- no doubt also in the UK under very similar laws -- simply, you have been "had" and feel 'dissatisfied' as customers.

Ross, your comments here are spot on - reading it in this context really makes me wonder how they?ve managed to get away with it for so long.

I suggest you do more than share your experiences but go ahead and lodge a formal complaint just like as if you had bought a 'bodgy' appliance or some misrepresented product -- surely messing with people's minds is more important than some poorly manufactured gadget that wasn't worth the money you spent on it ?

A very good and sensible idea - I will look into it, the sooner the better, as the more recent my experiences, the more likely that they?ll be taken seriously. Another irony here is that this point highlights how often people place more value on material goods than their own mental and emotional wellbeing - which ties in with the popular SES teaching of how living with attachments to the material world is such a destructive thing, when in fact their attachment to money is what leads to them controlling people and messing with their minds.

I?ll make a list of all the falsehoods that I could use - speaking of which I?ve curiously somehow managed to miss out on the ?great speech of Chief Seattle? parable, either our class never did it or I was on holiday at the time. It?d be a good point to include in with the complaint, as it indeed demonstrates the SES? lack of integrity and sincerity in what they claim to represent. I?ll refer to previous threads for info.

There is no real question of the (pseudo) religious nature of the SOP and yet they do not disclose or even disavow their real agenda when challenged and advertise in public places (railway,newspapers etc ) in a manner which is clearly "misleading and deceptive"

This is another interesting one - because in the first few terms it was stated more than once that the school did not operate under the umbrella of any particular religion, rather that the teachings were drawn from a variety of philosophies and religions, both east and west. I guess this is why I imagined that the meditation on offer would be of a practical nature, with no mysticism or belief attached to it - and most certainly no worship!

implausible denials of any "initiation rights", week's pay donations and mantras etc by the lecturer here were given when one (English - newly arrived from the UK ) student put it to the lecturer

This too is very interesting - I don?t think it ever got to the point in any of my classes where the tutor was questioned about these things, it was always just assumed (by me anyway) that eventually we would be given the option to meditate. The week that the class was eventually told about the money, initiation, mantra etc, I was on holiday so missed it, but I vividly recall coming back to a noticeably smaller class the following week - looking back it?s obvious a number of people woke up to the reality of it at this stage and disappeared.

I urge you to follow through and make a difference so that other naive but sincere people are not similarly intellectually defrauded.

I?m inspired! Will keep you posted.

mgormez
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Re: eyes opening in the UK

Postby mgormez » Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:34 pm

ross nolan wrote:I suggest you do more than share your experiences but go ahead and lodge a formal complaint just like as if you had bought a 'bodgy' appliance or some misrepresented product -- surely messing with people's minds is more important than some poorly manufactured gadget that wasn't worth the money you spent on it ?


About messing with people's minds, in 1971 in the UK a Psychological Practices Act was suggested by Sir Foster. He researched another cult which does the same and he came up with these points in his report:

260. The details of the legislation which I recommend will need to be worked out by all parties concerned: Parliament, the relevant Departments, and the psychotherapists themselves. No doubt problems will arise, but I know of none which cannot be solved. In my view, the following are among the matters which will have to be borne in mind:-

(a) Clearly, it is only the practice of psychotherapy for fee or reward in cash or kind, paid by or on behalf of the patient, which needs to be controlled, since in a very wide sense we all practise some kind of psychotherapy on each other in our personal relationships, and many voluntary organisations try to help people with "counselling";

(b) I see no reason why (as in the recommendations of the Anderson Board (189)), doctors, dentists, ministers of religion, social workers and marriage guidance counsellors should be exempted from the provisions of this legislation: if any of these wish to charge their patients or clients for practising psychotherapy on them, there is no reason why they should not first satisfy the Council that they have undergone the necessary training and obtained the necessary qualifications.

(c) the new profession's governing body will need to have power to make transitional arrangements for the admission of persons with limited or even no formal qualifications if they can qualify on the grounds of past experience in the field and are willing to satisfy any necessary tests and submit themselves to the appropriate ethical code.

(d) when psychotherapy was first developed, its concepts were revolutionary and Freud had to contend with much opposition before his theories found general acceptance. The subject is young and still developing rapidly. Clearly, the new profession's rules will need to be more flexible than those adopted at the present time by, say, lawyers and accountants. Had the medical profession been able to exclude osteopaths from practice in the past, much suffering might have gone unrelieved. It is therefore important to ensure that progress is not inhibited by the kind of conservatism which has, on occasions, tended to afflict some of the older professional bodies, particularly in the medical field. The best method of avoiding this pitfall is to provide for the appointment to the Council of a number of radically-minded laymen who will act as a leaven.

261. I see no reason at the present time why the practice of psychology (in my sense of the term) should be professionally restricted. The dangers inherent in an incompetent assessment of someone's intellectual capabilities or his fitness for a particular employment, albeit regrettable, do not appear to me to be of a comparable order with those resulting from an abuse, or an incompetent use, of a system of therapy which operates by a deliberate intervention in the patterns of people's irrational emotions.


It was not adopted.
Mike Gormez


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