"No sexual abuse in SES/SOP?"

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
ross nolan
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"No sexual abuse in SES/SOP?"

Postby ross nolan » Mon Feb 27, 2006 10:38 am

The topic of sexual abuse within the SES/SOP or associated schools seems to be hinted at obliquely or possibly by euphemism or was specifically claimed to exist in terms of 'voyeuristic' teachers during showering , enthusiastic bare bottom caning or the arranged marrying off of SES school girls and tutors.

It seems possible that there is more to it than has been openly spoken of and the one line dismissal in the Townend report " I found no evidence of sexual abuse" with 'needless to say' appended could well lead to the suspicion that " he protesteth too little" in glibly dismissing this rather crucial allegation (even if it was outside his terms of reference and he gives no evidence of having asked for or looked for corroboration of the fact of sexual wrongdoing in or associated with the schools )

Why might this topic be worth further attention ?

Firstly because it is virtually CHARACTERISTIC of nearly every sect,cult or religion to have covered up sexual abuse by the 'authority figures' within the group -- where a male dominated/female subservient ethos is created and the cult 'worships' some sort of guru or authority ("father" figure -literally in the Catholic religion "Pope" = Papa = Father )

In my hometown of Mildura the local Monsignor Day was known to be sexually abusing the altarboys and children in the school but was protected by the (Catholic) police chief -- this was 35 years ago and only last week was it admitted by the Church -- the local MP, an ex copper and Catholic, is trying to rehabilitate the copper who tried to have the monsignor brought to justice back then but was 'destroyed' in the process (his wife suicided,he was 'broken' by it -- I will post a link to the story)

Numerous other 'revelations' spanning decades are now common knowledge -- the suppressing of such wrongdoing and corruption weighs on the victims who feel guilty and disbelieved.

The temptation to use the adoration of female devotees for sexual purposes (or indeed as part of the 'beliefs' themselves ) almost always results in sexual exploitation and abuse -- it would be Unusual for such behaviour to NOT exist within the SES/SOP.

The Hindu based ISCKON (Hare Krishna) movement has been exposed to have concealed widespread and organized sexual manipulation and abuse of it's children - the same 'justifications' from Hindu religion would obviously apply to any other Hindu based religious cult -- eg SES.

The Catholic church has been shown to have covered up long standing and tolerated sexual abuse of children and vulnerable women by it's priests (for decades at least and probably hundreds of years in fact -- with mind control comes protection from disclosure and threat of divine retribution if confessing )

The Jehovah's Witnesses -- supposedly without any system of hierarchial clergy and " true believers" have been exposed as having a long history of sexual abuse of children , acting to silence the victims and protect the perpetrators whilst covering up incest and abuse of position within the church to gain sexual favours -- the list goes on to include Mormons, many other Indian based sects (the Rahjneesh, Orange people etc etc )

It would seem that the SES 'brand' of the Truth specifically demands submissiveness of it's females and trades on the idea of innate sin in women and girls, the need to 'please' men and the precepts of Hindu faith like Karma and reincarnation that are construed to favour abuse.

Yet it gets a 'spotless' bill of health in a one line dismissal.

I don't buy it . My observation of the "dynamics" between an SOP tutor and a female ( disclosed as having been an orphan) 'pupil' hinted at predatory intentions -- that same tutor referred to his 'headstrong' daughter who was too "tamas" -- again overtones of forced consent to at least the exercise of power conferred by the cult's religious doctrine.

I will post some weblinks that might be of interest.

Maximum anonymity should be observed in regard to this topic and the authorities and police should be the first port of call . PM's should be avoided except when you are certain of the identity and bona fides of the other party . Do not PM me. My intuition tells me there is much to be answered for in this area -- a forum such as this might be sufficient to make individual victims aware that they are not alone or should fear taking action .

Ross.
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mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Mon Feb 27, 2006 4:59 pm

I have collected sexual abuse stories of children in scinetology. In two of these cases one mother was threatened by scientology to be booted out of the cult if she contacted the police regarding here abused doughter, another victim who was sexually assaulted 100 times at ages 16 and 17 was suggested by scientology executives she would be taken away by social services and be given to psychiatrists if she talked -- the single biggest fear of scientologists.

Both man were convicted
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/childabus ... liams.html
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/strawn/index.html
Mike Gormez

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:02 pm

It's depressing to hear that sexual abuse is a characteristic of most cults, maybe even one of those 'definition' criteria to add to or augment existing definitions posted in various places on this site.

I guess it must follow when you have a system that depends on people becoming blindly subservient to the will of others. An ideology is of course crucial to the development of that subservience and it doesn't really matter what the ideology is, it doesn't even have to make sense, it just has to take over other people's brains so that they lose all self-conscious, rational thought. Why the sex? Well, if the motives of those in power are for their own gratification then it's gotta be for the power itself, for money, for sex or because they're mad. Or all of these.

I was particularly disturbed by Ross Nolan's posting which more or less nailed the SES. A student had heard a word used, wasn't sure what it was but it sounded a bit like the person was talking about what we take as 'karma'. Karma is a concept used by some crackpot somewhere to justify sex with children. Therefore the SES condones sex with children. Call the cops! As somebody said elsewhere. Er ... except if this is what he means by intimations (admittedly not exclusive to this sort of hogwash) then he doesn't have much to go on. Okay, he's picked up on other slurs elsewhere but are they more than deliberate slurs to prick up the ears of those hunting for dirt?

It seems that the SES doesn't practice sexual abuse. In any case to say that it does conflicts with the other accusation that it finds any sort of sexual activity abhorrent. The best anyone's managed to do to reconcile these contradictory statements is to write 'hypocrisy' in capital letters. But it's a lame effort, really. The other resolution might be that neither are true.

Was it Ross who intoned that Tutors become Tutors because they can expect to enjoy 'sexual favours' from students?

This is too whacky, I'm afraid. And it is Untrue.

Even more worryingly, though, if the practice of sexual abuse is a fundamental characteristic of all cults and it doesn't happen in SES ... what does that imply?

Jerome
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Postby Jerome » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:05 pm

I'm sorry to say this, but i believe there is bound to be sexual abuse where you have a group of people in a hierachy of power where some are either physically or mentally weaker than others. You'll always get those sick twisted...God I could swear so much whilst describing these people. You will always get that type of person where ever you are, the bigger the group, the greater the chance. Unless they are rooted out and thrown into a gaol to rot, It will keep on happening. Be it a cult or a church, no matter the teachings, there will be sexual abuse.

Jerome

ross nolan
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SES sexual factors

Postby ross nolan » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:55 pm

Dear Frodo, Jerome et al,

In answer to one "was it me who said ..." No I think you will find that Shout was referring to sexual abuse quite some time back . I have too little personal experience with the SES/SOP to make 'statements of fact' but I did have many years of exposure to the beliefs of the Jehovah's winesses and was actually shocked to learn of the long standing sexual abuses within that church (cult) even though some of the signs were there in retrospect (see the web on 'silent lambs' - victims of sexual abuse within JWs or other testimonials eg "I was raped at Bethel" )

Also inform yourself about the institutionalized sexual abuse within the Hindu Hare Krishna cult.

Perhaps take a look at the Karma Sutra or study some of the temple carvings on Hindu temples (there is nothing left to the imagination - every sexual position possible, threesomes and more etc -- this is not a sexually inhibited religion to say the very least !)

Various studies of Hindu sexuality have been conducted and reached contentious conclusions about sexual "policy" in Hinduism -- see "Kali's child" for starters. ( I have misplaced my notes and websites at this time -will post later)

Check out "Tantric sex" and possibly read a little of the descriptions of sexuality involving the gods of hinduism -- this provides the background on which to impose individual 'proclivities' for exploiting power .

One Christian fundamentalist who used to 'sound off' at a public "speakers forum" outside of the Melbourne public library stated that ''nowhere in the bible does god specify a minimum age for sex or marriage and no man has the right to tell Him what is sin or against the law " -- an ideal justification for under age sex (remember Jimmy Swaggert, that other evangelist and his massively over made up wife, ???, Garner Ted Armstrong lots of other God botherers not to even get into mainstream church abuse -- this, in a religion that finds sex embarrasing and goes out of it's way to conceal the fact . Apparently all of the male sculptures in the Vatican were either "castrated" or provided with fig leaves by members of the church (sworn to celibacy) many years ago and even Michaelangelo was leaned on to add 'modest' clothing to some of his paintings.

Obviously those priests and church elders who committed sexual abuses did not believe in divine retribution themselves and exploited the fear and superstition of the devout to get away with their misdeeds -- if the religion STARTS with no prohibitions against sexual 'union' and the 'teachers' do not believe what they are teaching what are the chances of sexual exploitation occurring ?

There is plenty of smoke about, maybe there is a bit of fire ?
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james
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Postby james » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:18 pm

One of the strongest teachings in the SES/SOP is "no sex before marrige". Husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, are not allowed to behave as such on weekends and must abstain from any sexual actions.

While im not saying it definatly hasn't happend, I would be very suprised to hear of actual physical sexual abuse of a serious nature within the SES or St James, beyond that of the showering incidents.

I would be more suprised to hear of events of this nature hapening recently. If anybody has any actual evidence of this happening it would be good.
Im in a cult? You think? Don't worry the spaceships will be coming soon.

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:40 pm

I don't know of any sexual abuse happening as such in the US schools - and remember that I grew up there, so I've been around - no pun intended. However, I do think that many people involved are sexually repressed and this doesn't usually bring one on a good path. I also think that the whole arranged and guided marriage thing is in some ways sexually-related abuse. Guiding young girls who are naive in terms of sex to marry someone much older or someone who the older adults think is a good match is not allowing that girl to have control over her body and her sexual understanding and development. When you have learned to let others be in control, and to surrender, and to say "not this, not this", there is a line that can be crossed into letting yourself be abused (even if you aren't saying "no" to the other person). I've been down that road and it isn't pleasant.

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Keir
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Postby Keir » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:38 am

I am sorry to say that I heard many 'stories' about men in the SES offering lifts home to young women after large meetings, only for them to be molested in the back of the car on the way home.

I agree with James that it is the individual that is sick for him to attempt to physically force himself on a teenage girl, let alone that he is 'known' for it amongst the teenage girls. But I have to say that the culture that disbelieves the teenage girls in favour of the 'socially responsible adult' is just as much to blame for furthering the individual's ability to continue doing it.

The culture of 'lack of censure' was ingrained in the senior echelons of the SES and was highlighted by the case of one of the day schools head teachers having a very public affair without any come back or reprimand.

If you show a child that this is the way that things are done, how can you expect reportage of abuse to become any other than idle gossip, whilst the abuser continues to show how community minded he is by offering to take a poor defenceless girl home etc etc.

I don't have any current information about the SES, but considering that they were not 'on to it' then, how much can it have changed?

ross nolan
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some follow up

Postby ross nolan » Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:27 pm

OK scepticism about sexual molestation,abuse,incest,manipulation or even ritualized sex as religion is of itself healthy and can only be moderated by the unfortunate validated record of all such misdeeds by the most 'holy' and 'enlightened' religious devotees, gurus, priests etc

Below are a few only websites that might give cause to question the unquestionability of the SES in this respect -- many specific sites dealing with the 'official' place of even child prostitution in formal hinduism are included (ie no 'abherent' behaviour is involved -- it is expected ; not unlike the physical abuse justifications 'explaining' the behaviour mainly towards boys in the schools )

"Sexual abuse by spiritual leaders"

www.advocateweb.org/hope/soulbetrayal.asp.

"Child spanking as sexual abuse"

www.nospank.net/holm.htm

"Kali's child" author Jeffrey Kripal Uni of Chicago.

www.ruf.rice.edu/~kalischi/

"Hardly Krishna" Sushi Das Hare Krishna child sexual abuse.

www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/06/02/1 ... 08753.html

Key Words; "Heaven's Harlots" -- 'My fifteen years as a sacred prostitute in the Children of God' - Mirriam Williams.

Pentacostalists (speaking in tongues) "Flirt Girls" 'Hookers for God"

Background on a number of cults including sexual perversions etc .

http:// religion-cults.com/Cults/Christian/C-CULTS. htm
also ........ ditto ........................................CULTS2. htm.

Covers Mormon polygamy ,JW sexual cover ups etc -- recently Mormons have been 'abandoning' young men at remote interstate locations to preserve the females for polygamous elders (on the web )

On the Moonies --- (pseudo Christian) "Salvation" comes from;-
1. Having actual sex with Moon, for the girls (reverend Moon)
2. Having actual sex with a girl who has had sex with Moon, if you are a man.
3. Working full time for Moon.

About reincarnation.
www.krishna.com/printarticles/Reincarna ... #Neurology.

Note Reincarnation can "explain' recovered memories of (apparent) sexual abuse as a child (ie absolve an abuser in the eyes of the church)
or can 'excuse' sex with an (apparent) child because of prior sexual "knowledge" --' evidence' for knowledge from prior lives is found in child prodigies . and the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama etc with prior wisdom.

Hinduism exposed Robert a Morey


"Social Evils" (sub heading) "Children as sex slaves in Hindu temples"

'serving the sexual perversions of the priests and gurus but also act as prostitutes to bring in money"

(this site is not flattering to Hinduism or" politically correct ")

http://www.british-israel.ca/hinduism.htm

There are no doubt hundreds more .

I will endevour to post the recent articles about Monsignor Day as promised -- this is a case I was 'vaguely' aware of being allowed to go on in full knowledge of 'the authorities' . Anyone reporting abuse would be well advised to simultaneously provide evidence and testimony to two (or more) seperate official bodies to preclude covering up (a bit like dividing a blood drug test sample at the Olympics etc )-- obviously without each knowing of the other .

Ross .
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xstJ
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sexual abuse of girls at St James

Postby xstJ » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:24 pm

There's no doubt in my mind that the hitting of girl's in St James was sexual abuse. If a girl was to be hit she was told to come to the front of the class pull her knickers down, lift her dress up and bend over. The teacher then hit her with her bare hand.

I was never punished in this way but it happened frequently. I felt violated and ashamed just watching it, so I expect the girls it happened to feel this even more strongly, and are therefore very unlikely to want to come forward and speak about it now.

The perpetrators were Gay David and Felicity Debenham.

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:22 pm

Well, Keir, I have never heard these stories. And I don't know anyone else who has heard these stories. If anything, members of SES are expected to behave with decency - since truthfulness and honesty would be hallmarks of any legitimate philosophical pursuit. As for the well-meaning Mr Nolan, just posting up a million links to do with abuse in various cults and organisations or devising tenuous links (SES looks at Eastern Philosophy - among other things - Eastern philosophy comes from the East, Japan is in the East, during the war thousands of prisoners died building a bridge over the River Kwai, therefore, incontrovertably, SES people whistle while they work.) doesn't mean anything at all. In fact, since it would seem that there is no sexual abuse in the SES and, according to you, sexual abuse is a characteristic of cults, it would seem that the SES isn't a cult at all.

Meanwhile, a lot of wild allegations are coming out that have not come out before and one just wonders about them.

Jerome
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Postby Jerome » Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:25 pm

xstJ

First time I've learnt of this. I may be a current pupil of St.James, but I also want to learn the truth as does everyone. This is where certain guilty individuals can really get nailed. All that is needed is the evidence. All well and good ordering more inquiries and it is this type of stuff that is the lowest of the low and needs to be dealt with accordingly and investigated.

Jerome

ross nolan
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sarcasm not needed

Postby ross nolan » Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:46 pm

Hi, just an interim post _ I lost another substantial posting due to spyware that I thought I had cleaned out -- I will try again probably this weekend.

Frodo - I thought you had concerns about "SES and gays" and would therefore possibly have some comprehension about matters of sexual 'blackmail' and the significance of sexual abuse (which is, apart from the lust aspect, also a 'power thing' to use the current shorthand -- the betrayal of trust when it involves children , especially children in a situation of trust and expected care by their parents, is especially deplorable . This forum is not just about St James school but the whole SES and SOP == this is an adult organization of which the day schools are but a small part and the issue of abuse of trust goes far beyond just the current pupils issues.

If you have nothing to contribute then don't.

I am not gay and don't feel either qualified or affected to involve myself in that thread ,but I do know of sexual blackmail of gays and do not deny it just because I don't have firsthand knowledge -- maybe a policy you might adopt?

Your flippant comment about "Ross posts something about abuse in Eastern religions...Japan is the east...Prisoners on the Burma railway whistled..therefore SES people whistle" is not just insulting in tone and meant to belittle an argument on plausibility but is staggeringly reminiscent of the description of the warped 'logic' displayed by the SES in it's introduction course as posted on the Philosophers magazine website
(I'll put it up after this) and I think also the Dialogue Ireland site - to whit (from memory "Look this is logic , this is what it is good for, Buses are long and have wheels, Trains are long and have wheels, Therefore all buses are trains " (sic - roughly the gist of it )

It reveals far more about your own motivations (ie protecting the SES by trying to ridicule a logical argument, terming allegations (testimony actually) as 'wild' , etc etc -- what is your point?

If this sort of thing is your best effort at refuting an argument or providing evidence for your own counter point then it refects very badly not only on your own integrity but more so on the teaching and ethos of the St James school.

All the abusive and incoherent 'ravings' by the current St James pupils defending the school must be presumed to be being monitored by their teachers (as we are assured they are ) and since there has been no censure or apparent embarrasment at the appalling lack of any critical thinking skills, clear expression or even an attempt at refutation by reasoned debate ,fact or any logical or indeed philosophical approach then we must feel free to assume that this sort of thing is in fact condoned by the school and represents the results of their education.

I will follow up with the promised websites and post as short pieces to try to avoid further loss of text. (Backup did not work either -- I still have spywarec and malware on board )

Ross.

PS Frodo -- try to exhibit a bit of the humility and sincerity of your adopted namesake -- Perhaps Gandalf the wise will return to put you back on the right track with a bit of real wisdom.
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Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:25 pm

Frodo wrote:Well, Keir, I have never heard these stories. And I don't know anyone else who has heard these stories. If anything, members of SES are expected to behave with decency - since truthfulness and honesty would be hallmarks of any legitimate philosophical pursuit.

You might as well point out that governments are expected to respect human rights and armies are expected not to target civilians. I think you would agree that it would be naive to assume that people in positions of power can be relied upon always to behave as they ought to.

The Townend Inquiry has clearly demonstrated that many members of the SES did not behave with decency at St James and St Vedast.

Frodo wrote:Meanwhile, a lot of wild allegations are coming out that have not come out before and one just wonders about them.

Yes, we should treat all allegations with a measure of caution and scepticism. But at the same time we should bear in mind that the SES not only allowed its members to "criminally assault" children for many years but also managed to cover up this abuse for decades. I think it would be reasonable to suggest that there may well be more unpleasant information still to be discovered about what the SES did at their schools.

Tom

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Keir
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Postby Keir » Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:07 am

Well Frodo,

I wonder whether it has crossed your mind that with an attitude like that you might not have inspired the confidence of a traumatised and cynical young woman to open up about her humiliating experience?

It is well documented that despite the abuser being in the wrong it is often the abused that ends up feeling responsible for it.

I marvel at your dismissive attitude not only towards the stories of sexual assault but also the fact that they are coming out after the enquiry.

It is highly specious to suggest that just because the governors set a deadline for an enquiry, that everyone who has information will be willing to come forward in time for it. If there had been any serious intent to address anything but damage limitation, this would have become blatantly obvious.

Many ex pupils will have wanted to move on with as much rapidity as possible, some will suspect insincerity from a process so tinkered with by the governors, and some may still be trying to make sense of their own feelings after reading this BB.

Just because you are ignorant of something doesn't mean it isn't true.

I find your attitude insulting to those people who were assaulted, and who had to endure it any which way they could because people with strikingly similar attitudes to you ran the SES.


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