John Scottus School in Ireland - illegal corporal punishment

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
ConcernedMum
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Postby ConcernedMum » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:11 pm

I didn't think of that way but it is quite distressing that in order to avoid one restrictive belief system, children are then exposed to another one. Funny you should mention the convent Bonsai because the atmosphere in john scottus does remind me of the nuns to an extent -the hyper control. My son will be going to a primary under a catholic ethos (little choice not to!) unlike at john scottus school at least I know what I'm dealing with in terms of its beliefs and we can discuss them. We'll see when he goes. I'm a bit of a fence-sitter I'm afraid - he has been baptised - more for cultural and family reasons and also I do believe in forces for good and learning about them in a loving environment- wouldn't call it god though. Ah, if only Douglas Adams had started a religion.......

"If on the other hand he went to pay his respects to The Door and it wasn't there ... what then? The answer, of course, was very simple. He had a whole board of circuits for dealing with exactly this problem, in fact this was the very heart of his function. He would continue to believe in it whatever the facts turned out to be, what else was the meaning of belief? The Door would still be there, even if the Door was not.
-- (Douglas Adams, Dirk Gently: Holistic Detective Agency)
...The door was the way to... to... The Door was The Way. Good. Capital letters were always the best way of dealing with things you didn't have a good answer to".
Last edited by ConcernedMum on Sat Apr 14, 2007 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Goblinboy
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Postby Goblinboy » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:16 am

bonsai wrote:The sad thing about the SES is that whilst it is based on Advaita, a separate branch of Hinduism, they would claim not to be Hindu. They have bastardised the philosophy quite a bit and meshed in all sorts of ideas from other sources.

As soon as people allow their own reason and discrimination to be bypassed by a belief system then they are open to being manipulated.


Interesting aside, Bonsai - I was discussing SES beliefs with an SES friend recently and put it to him that the beliefs were essentially Hindu. He was briefly silent, and then agreed.

And when looking at the outward appearance of the local primary school here, there are enough artefacts to indicate the Indian ethos - a large proportion of the students are of Indian ethnicity, Indian dance lessons, performances, readings and studies of classic Hindu texts, sanskrit lessons, etc.

But despite appearances, there's no acknowledgement of this by the school when questioned.

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bonsai
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Postby bonsai » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:59 am

Goblinboy wrote:He was briefly silent...


That's so SES. It will destroy any spontaneity or impulse.

Bonsai

Abel Holzing
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Postby Abel Holzing » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:59 am

ConcernedMum wrote:I didn't think of that way but it is quite distressing that in order to avoid one restrictive belief system, children are then exposed to another one.

Well, there are 'restrictive belief systems', and then there are truly 'freeing', 'liberating' beliefs. It seems the original intention behind all religions is to 'liberate' people, but somehow they all end up 'restricting' them. The restrictions seem to arise with the attempt to organise those 'liberating beliefs', and turn them into a 'religion', a 'system'.

But simply avoiding those belief systems doesn't seem to be the answer either, because the social / cultural consensus underpinning society is also merely a belief system - and society, surely, is the Ultimate Cult since it starts indoctrinating everyone from the moment of birth.

So the question is: how can one escape the cult of society without exchanging it for another restricting belief system? What are the truly liberating beliefs?

And no, I don't think Douglas Adams is the answer ... :-)

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bonsai
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Postby bonsai » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:34 am

Abel Holzing wrote:Well, there are 'restrictive belief systems', and then there are truly 'freeing', 'liberating' beliefs. It seems the original intention behind all religions is to 'liberate' people, but somehow they all end up 'restricting' them. The restrictions seem to arise with the attempt to organise those 'liberating beliefs', and turn them into a 'religion', a 'system'.


Abel. I have to disagree. Beliefs are by their very nature restrictive. They focus you towards an answer that may or may not be there and keep you committed to a path. Yes a belief system can be used for good purposes and can also be used to liberate you from the confines of a restrictive system but a belief presumes the answer quite often without asking the questions. Questions are truely liberating.

Abel Holzing wrote:But simply avoiding those belief systems doesn't seem to be the answer either, because the social / cultural consensus underpinning society is also merely a belief system - and society, surely, is the Ultimate Cult since it starts indoctrinating everyone from the moment of birth.


We all have beliefs, often without even realising them and yes society does have its own underlying belief system too. Beliefs, be they systems or otherwise, are essential for progress. We do have to have a belief to step into the unknown. And certainly trying to avoid all belief systems would be a little tricky.

Abel Holzing wrote:So the question is: how can one escape the cult of society without exchanging it for another restricting belief system? What are the truly liberating beliefs?


Now that's an interesting question, although I disagree about it being a belief system that is the answer. I would also ask the question, "Do we need to escape the cult of society to truely be free?"

Bonsai

Abel Holzing
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Postby Abel Holzing » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:39 pm

bonsai wrote:
Abel Holzing wrote:... and then there are truly 'freeing', 'liberating' beliefs.

I have to disagree. Beliefs are by their very nature restrictive ... Questions are truely liberating.

By 'truly liberating beliefs' I meant 'an inner knowing of that which truly liberates'. 'Particular' or 'fixed' beliefs, i.e. belief systems, won't do, of course.

And no, questioning as such is not necessarily liberating. You can ask questions all your life and get absolutely nowhere. On the other hand, you may ask a certain type of question, with a certain intention, and with absolute sincerity, and it may cut through an awful lot of stuff and be hugely liberating. Ultimately, this is all about knowing the difference between the two.

bonsai wrote:
Abel Holzing wrote:But simply avoiding those belief systems doesn't seem to be the answer either, because the social / cultural consensus underpinning society is also merely a belief system - and society, surely, is the Ultimate Cult since it starts indoctrinating everyone from the moment of birth.

Beliefs, be they systems or otherwise, are essential for progress. We do have to have a belief to step into the unknown. And certainly trying to avoid all belief systems would be a little tricky.

Hmm ... it seems when it suits you (i.e. when we are talking about the cult you are a member of, i.e. the societal belief system), beliefs are essential for progress and, in any case, a little tricky to avoid. When it doesn't suit you (i.e. when we are talking about other cults), beliefs are by their very nature restrictive (your quote) and need to be opposed.

bonsai wrote:
Abel Holzing wrote:So the question is: how can one escape the cult of society without exchanging it for another restricting belief system? What are the truly liberating beliefs?

Now that's an interesting question, although I disagree about it being a belief system that is the answer.

? ? What are you 'disagreeing' with? The whole point of my post was to argue that 'belief systems' are always restrictive.

bonsai wrote:I would also ask the question, "Do we need to escape the cult of society to truely be free?"

Good question - let us know when you've found the answer ... :-)

I am sure it's not about 'escaping' in the sense of 'cutting oneself off', or 'avoiding' etc - freedom is probably more an inner than an outer state; a kind of seeing through the confused and often absurd messages 'society' sends out, and remaining inwardly free.

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bonsai
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Postby bonsai » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:10 pm

It's strange, I think we agree but we are missing each other's points or are getting tripped up by symantecs:

In your first post you refer to "truly 'freeing', 'liberating' beliefs" thereby hypothesising or declaring that a belief system exists that does not restrict. In your last post you point out however that you mean 'an inner knowing of that which truly liberates'. You seem to be referring in this case to knowledge rather than a belief. There is a big difference between knowledge and belief and they are easily mistaken for each other.

Abel Holzing wrote:Hmm ... it seems when it suits you (i.e. when we are talking about the cult you are a member of, i.e. the societal belief system), beliefs are essential for progress and, in any case, a little tricky to avoid. When it doesn't suit you (i.e. when we are talking about other cults), beliefs are by their very nature restrictive (your quote) and need to be opposed.


It's not a case of when it suits me and when it doesn't. Beliefs are useful when used properly and not useful when not. Beliefs can drive the search for knowledge and can be used to choose a path to follow but one must be prepared to abandon that belief in the light of evidence, experience and knowledge. This is the "essential for progress bit". They are not useful when a belief is substitued for knowledge as is common in the SES and cults. In this case, they stifle the asking of questions and the search for answers and influence behaviour. Here they are most definitely restrictive.

Abel Holzing wrote:
bonsai wrote:
I would also ask the question, "Do we need to escape the cult of society to truely be free?"

Good question - let us know when you've found the answer


It is my belief (and I wouldn't impose it on anyone else) that it is possible to live in society and be free. The only evidence I have supporting this is the fact that I feel free. There is still plenty of time for other evidence to be presented to suggest that I'm not and for me to abandon this belief.

Bonsai

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:56 am

CM - I'm so sorry that your son had to go through that. Were any disciplinary actions taken against the teacher who slapped him? Because that's illegal, as you know. If the school did not do something, I would sue. Just my opinion. The SES schools have gotten away with physical abuse far long enough now.

ConcernedMum
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Postby ConcernedMum » Fri Apr 13, 2007 7:38 am

Hi Free Thinker, thanks for your thoughts. Thankfully it wasn't my son who was slapped - if it had i would make sure it went some sort of official channel alright. If it was any other place of work where children were being looked after I think it would result in instant suspension pending an investigation. I still find it really incredible that it happened - they are so little.


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