Enjoying the dream

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Enjoying the dream

Postby Tootsie » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:17 pm

Dennis Waite was asked a question by a person seeking enlightenment who had been a member of a spiritual organisation for 7 years and was wondering after the 7 years if his goal was really enlightenment?

A: Yes, I understand your views. I used to belong to the SES organisation in the UK and attended for many years. Although, ostensibly teaching advaita, this was much more of a group who were sharing their common practices, environment and cultural values, if you like. It seemed to me that they were using the supposed aim merely as a the trigger that had brought them together and the purpose was now forgotten. The group itself was now the raison d’être.

In my experience, the true pursuit of enlightenment is generally confined to those who are deeply dissatisfied with their lives and the supposed values of society. Those who actually enjoy life or who seek to find satisfaction through dualistic means (ambition, money, objects, finding a partner etc.) are not suited to the enlightenment search and are unlikely to have the determination to follow a serious path. To put it brutally, if you are enjoying the dream, why bother waking up? The problem is of course that life, being dualistic, will always have its ups and downs. If things are going well, they are likely to get worse (and vice versa of course!). There is no problem with this. You are the non-dual Self whether you seek to discover this or not (and whether you like it or not). If knowing that your true nature is unlimited, that ‘you’ cannot die etc. is important, then you will (eventually) become a seeker. Whatever happens is ok from the absolute perspective so if you are happy from the relative perspective, don’t worry about it!

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bonsai
Posts: 322
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Location: London

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby bonsai » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:26 pm

Tootsie quoting Dennis Waite wrote:In my experience, the true pursuit of enlightenment is generally confined to those who are deeply dissatisfied with their lives and the supposed values of society.
And that in itself should not necessarily mean they should embark on a spiritual path for meaning, there could be plenty of reasons why they are dissatisfied with their lives that will not be satisfied by discovering advaita.


Tootsie quoting Dennis Waite wrote:Whatever happens is ok from the absolute perspective so if you are happy from the relative perspective, don’t worry about it!
It is exactly this point that makes me so furious about what happens at St James. The implication of the way that the philosophy is imposed at St James is that everyone that does not have access to the Truth is dissatisfied

Nor do I understand why knowing the underlying truth that the universe is an illusion of Maya suddenly imposes all these restrictions on how to behave and what is or is not important.

And clearly a number of the teachers, whilst having access to the underlying truth have done truely unacceptable things to pupils in their care.

Bonsai

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby Tootsie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:42 am

I think Lord Acton got it right when he said "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" SES teachers are just like the rest of us, with some good and some bad inside of us. I remember from my own school days we had a teacher that was a bully by nature and enjoyed giving his pupils the strap. One day he decided to punish the whole class for some small demeanour and we all got three of the best from him. The following day we were all sitting in his class when the door flew open and this huge man burst into the room and grabbed the teacher by the scuff of his neck, lifted him up and proceeded to bang him up against the blackboard saying 'you will never beat my son again for something he did not do'. It turned out that the boys father was a professional wrestler. After this incident I never saw the teacher give the strap again.

I'm sure if this had happened to one of the SES school teachers the message would have got through to them and their bad sides would be more under control.

ConcernedMum
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:58 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby ConcernedMum » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:50 am

Tootsie wrote:I think Lord Acton got it right when he said "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" SES teachers are just like the rest of us, with some good and some bad inside of us. I remember from my own school days we had a teacher that was a bully by nature and enjoyed giving his pupils the strap. One day he decided to punish the whole class for some small demeanour and we all got three of the best from him. The following day we were all sitting in his class when the door flew open and this huge man burst into the room and grabbed the teacher by the scuff of his neck, lifted him up and proceeded to bang him up against the blackboard saying 'you will never beat my son again for something he did not do'. It turned out that the boys father was a professional wrestler. After this incident I never saw the teacher give the strap again.

I'm sure if this had happened to one of the SES school teachers the message would have got through to them and their bad sides would be more under control.


While it is clearly true that like any organisation there are good and bad and that within each of us there is good and bad, that doesn't explain the remarkable similarity in the behaviour of SES members across cultures globally and the assaults on children in London, Amsterdam and Dublin.

Psychologists have spent years looking into the factors that enable 'good' people to behave 'badly'. The 'bad apple' theory has been largely discounted. I read a quote (and I'll post a link if I can find it) from a research psychologist who said that the more accurate analogy is that if you put any fruit or vegetables into pickling vinegar, you get sour pickles. It was and is the culture of the SES that enables the badness and also enables most current members to not see the past abuse and deceit as badness. In the SES, certain abusive and deceitful behaviours are cultivated in individuals.

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bonsai
Posts: 322
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Location: London

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby bonsai » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:18 am

ConcernedMum wrote:While it is clearly true that like any organisation there are good and bad and that within each of us there is good and bad, that doesn't explain the remarkable similarity in the behaviour of SES members across cultures globally and the assaults on children in London, Amsterdam and Dublin.
Absolutely. The people in the SES are so easily corrupted because Leon MacLaren was a nasty bully and he frightened people into conforming.

Tootsie quoting Dennis Waite wrote:Although, ostensibly teaching advaita, this was much more of a group who were sharing their common practices, environment and cultural values, if you like. It seemed to me that they were using the supposed aim merely as a the trigger that had brought them together and the purpose was now forgotten. The group itself was now the raison d’être.
The organisation has become the most important thing and this has allowed the culture of abuse to flourish. Themost powerful sanction of the organisation is to ostracise someone. This can be a very effective to keep people within the Organisation despite what may be going on in the Organisation.

Bonsai

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby Tootsie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:20 am

I would agree with bonsai that one of the main weapons school used against anybody speaking up was the threat of ostracising them. When I attended school there was even a special group called the O group where pupils ended up if they didn't toe the line. I don't know if this practise is still current in the school. I could never see how this contributed to oneness and unity that supposedly was the aim of school, as pupils in this group were regarded as untouchables by most of the others.

ses-surviver
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:11 pm
Location: London

Re: Enjoying the dream

Postby ses-surviver » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:44 pm

Tootsie wrote:I would agree with bonsai that one of the main weapons school used against anybody speaking up was the threat of ostracising them. When I attended school there was even a special group called the O group where pupils ended up if they didn't toe the line. I don't know if this practise is still current in the school. I could never see how this contributed to oneness and unity that supposedly was the aim of school, as pupils in this group were regarded as untouchables by most of the others.


ah the 'O' group - I remember them ... a bunch of unlikely rebels if ever there was one ... I must admit that I had a fear of ending up in that group myself ... but I thought it better to leave.

I think that people do find it tough to leave because of the ostracising which takes place. Though I have stayed in touch with a couple of ex-group members on an infrequent basis, it wasn't until a few weeks ago (almost 20 years since I left) that I actually met with some people who I knew to be current members of the SES ... and very nice blokes they were too ... even if they had forgotten me :) To be honest, I knew the deal and I never made any attempt to contact anyone and though the first couple of years were difficult - I had all that spare time to do something with - eventually I found something else to do with myself and built a new network of friends. One does get a sense that, in some ways the 'organisation' itself has been the most important thing, which Dorine Tolley alludes to in her book on Mr Maclaren.


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