THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
bluemoon
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:52 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby bluemoon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:34 am

Hi Free and Tootsie,

I must admit I would welcome a topic to discuss something more positive, here with others that have got so far in SES and left for one reason or another, but are still interested in the basic 'philosophy'. It would not necessarily not relate to the SES either, in fact most of us here probably got the basics of so-called 'Advaita' teaching at the SES. For me it was the other stuff thrown in that was a problem. But I can understand that those that find the whole 'teaching' also a problem might feel this is not the place. Perhaps we should leave it to Daffy to say if its OK or not - it would just be a topic, people don't have to join in the discussion, but any criticism of the teaching would perhaps make a refreshing change!

Bluemoon
Last edited by bluemoon on Thu May 24, 2012 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

ConcernedMum
Posts: 93
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:58 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby ConcernedMum » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:36 am

I'll throw my 2 cents in. I think it wouldn't be a helpful thing to have a thread on Gangaji's teaching for these reasons:

1) It is a distraction from the substance of the forum which is discussion of the SES itself. For anyone, like myself, who needed to find critical information (and by critical I don't mean information that criticises, I mean information written by those using their critical faculties rather than the unthinking neither accept/reject mode) it would be a shame if the purpose of the forum became clouded.

2) It is not a safe place for such discussion especially as those coming here are often fresh out of the SES and are vulnerable as a result. It would be ex-SES'ers take on Gangaji. You (nor I) have no idea how much the SES has influenced your thinking/feelings/style on matters. For example, I have noticed on this forum a certain impatient tone that I have come to identify as an SES-learned habit. Someone recently responded to having their belief in hindu cosmology questionned quite impatiently that they would not debate the issue as the other person had 'an attitude'. Now whether that style is learned in the SES or whether the SES provides shelter to those with that mindset already, I do not know but I think it is better that there be clear blue water between those exSESers who wish to talk about advaita and those who wish to talk about the SES. They are different things and until someone is clear whether the SES's take on advaita is so corrupted or not that those who have learnt it need to go back and untangle the style from the content and see what is true, I think they are too close to their SES experience to engage with those who have either just left or are questionning about it.

They may, unconsciously, repeat the abusive pattern which those who have experienced the SES have been subjected to and as this is a very useful resource for those who are looking for the truth about their experience, it would be very sad if this forum became a place where they re-experienced a trauma rather than gained an understanding of it.

bluemoon
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:52 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby bluemoon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:28 am

I think they are valid points ConcernedMum.

Bluemoon
Last edited by bluemoon on Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

Daffy
Moderator
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:32 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Daffy » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:41 pm

I don't really know anything about the subject you are discussing, but this forum doesn't have strict rules about whether topics are directly SES-related or not, so I have no problem with starting a topic on this. Let's see where it leads.

bluemoon
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:52 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby bluemoon » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:21 pm

Thanks Daffy,

I'll think about it since there are views against it.

Best wishes, Bluemoon
Last edited by bluemoon on Wed Feb 10, 2010 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

Free
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:30 pm

Postby Free » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:16 pm

<delete>
Last edited by Free on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Ahamty2 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:03 am

I have to express my view on the suggestion of discussing Advaita on this forum. I have to agree entirely with the views put forward by ConcernedMum. While this is an open forum one must take part in it with caution. Even though Duffy allows it ,we all must tread with care not only for the reasons given by ConcernedMum but I would like to remind some of you who were on the 'why are they dead' site under Mike Gomez what happened some years back which brought this forum to its knees and many good ex SESers left the discussion and as well Andrew Hogg, one of the co-authors of “Secret Cult”.

Tootsie is quite right, why Gangaji? Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle, et al are westerners cashing in on the void left by the demise of all the so called Indian gurus, no matter how 'sweet and squeaky clean' they may sound. Why Advaita, because we feel comfortable with the terminology; why not other concepts? Beware of our SES conditioning, even after many years out of it, as it is very subtle mind control. I remember in one of his early visits to oz, LM was critical, in a hostile manner, with buddhism when it was raised that it is the fastest(still is) growing philosophy(religion) in Australia. He said in a stern way that buddhists were the only real atheists of the world as they denied the existence of a creator. Australia is a very secular society and we lie at the foot of Asia and buddhism appeals to a lot of Australians who have given up formal religion.

The SES sees itself as the Brahmin caste of the West hence the Laws of Manu obsession. Advaita is buddhist philosophy transposed into hindu vedic teaching. There is a book just published called “The God Market” by Meera Nanda in which it is pointed out how globalisation is making India more Hindu, how the middle class brahmin hindu are becoming more powerful over the other castes. She cites the rise of powerful new 'god-men',an increase in temple rituals among middle class politicians using hindu prayers and pilgrimages as part of political campaigning. She points out that India's growing wealth (in the hands of the few of its billion people) has created a nexus between the state,temple and business that has fuelled the rise of a new Hindu fundamentalism that threatens secularism itself. The SES wants to be the western equivalent to this movement and is using Advaita for this purpose. It has to do with power over others. As it says in “Secret Cult” ' a full expose of a strange and destructive organization that is penetrating the corridors of power'!

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Tootsie » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:42 am

Ganagaji had the same problem as Hillary Clinton and Elin Woods had. As Hillary said about her husband, Bill is a "hard dog to keep on the porch" But as the Lord's Prayer says we have to forgive so Merle G let Eli off the hook.

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morrigan
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:06 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby morrigan » Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:45 am

Our family are Kshatriya, not Brahmin, and Siddhartha Buddha himself was also a Kshatriya. His mother Maya would have been called a Chetri since she came from Nepal. The way he lived and was sad about realising how many people had problems, never being prejudiced against them, never making them serve him, is a good example of how to love and care for others, a bit extreme, but not the way SES and SofP have been ruled.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Ahamty2 » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:45 am

Morrigan,
You are right to be proud of your Kshatriya status as you share it with Siddartha Gautama. Spare a thought for those of the Vaishyas and Shudras caste who are lower than your family's Kshattriya status. Then there are the outcastes, the Dalits who are the untouchables.

However, none of this has a place in a modern democratic India today.

bluemoon
Posts: 125
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:52 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby bluemoon » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:27 pm

These are all valid points against a thread on 'advaita'/Gangaji on this forum. I will certainly not be starting one!

Ahamty2 wrote:

The SES sees itself as the Brahmin caste of the West hence the Laws of Manu obsession. Advaita is buddhist philosophy transposed into hindu vedic teaching. There is a book just published called “The God Market” by Meera Nanda in which it is pointed out how globalisation is making India more Hindu, how the middle class brahmin hindu are becoming more powerful over the other castes. She cites the rise of powerful new 'god-men',an increase in temple rituals among middle class politicians using hindu prayers and pilgrimages as part of political campaigning. She points out that India's growing wealth (in the hands of the few of its billion people) has created a nexus between the state,temple and business that has fuelled the rise of a new Hindu fundamentalism that threatens secularism itself. The SES wants to be the western equivalent to this movement and is using Advaita for this purpose. It has to do with power over others. As it says in “Secret Cult” ' a full expose of a strange and destructive organization that is penetrating the corridors of power'!


All this stuff about 'caste' and Manu etc, may or may not have anything useful in it, but the way those that seem to 'like' it so much seem to somehow put themselves into the category of 'Brahmin' so they have power over everyone else is in my opinion sick and twisted and if they remain deluded that a bit of 'ascetic' living and study of ancient texts makes them superior, whilst their hearts have turned to stone, one day they may get a shock.

Bluemoon
Last edited by bluemoon on Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SES London, 1990-2009, Female

Free
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:30 pm

Postby Free » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:34 pm

<delete>
Last edited by Free on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Ahamty2 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:24 am

You may be surprised but I am in agreement with what you have written,Free. By all means, have the discussion as this is an open forum and Daffy has agreed to it. Some of us may express caution but that does not stop others from going ahead with it.

You need to be mindful that this forum is open to a diverse variety of people, we are not all Anglo-Celtic on this forum so we all have different ethical and cultural backgrounds. Our psychological conditioning is variable, therefore, we will not all think, rationalize nor reason from the same point. Western conditioned thinking is peculiar to the western mindset, just remember that.

If you separate something from its roots then that is what you do, hence, Advaita without its vedic principals and hindu ritual practices is not Advaita, some have already called it Neo-Advaita. Sufism separated from its islamic roots is not sufism, christianity separated from Christ is not christianity. Take Buddha out of buddhism then it is not buddhism, is it? You will have to call it something else. Isn't this what the New Age(Aquarius) movement is all about, you take a little bit of this and a little bit of that, add a pinch of this herb and that herb mix it up, boil it and you have a new brew.

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:42 pm

The SES sees itself as the Brahmin caste of the West hence the Laws of Manu obsession.


Yes indeed. There's an article in the Convivium magazine of Autumn 2003 by SM Jaiswal. It is about the concept of Sanatana Dharma, laws conceived 'by wise men on the pattern of the ever-present, eternal laws of nature'. The laws evolved in Ancient India 'for social co-operation, Man's equitable relation with the universe at large, and for the successful realisation of his own possibilities.' Jaiswal goes on to say that 'Sanatana Dharma proposes 4 types of people or caste:
Brahmana – the philosophical type
Kshatriya – the organising type
Vaishya – the enterprising type
This classification is based on the emotional, intellectual and physical talent which may predominate in the individual. The fourth is called
Shudra or one who has fallen from his duties by conscious rejection of the whole Sanatana Dharma. He is out of the law system.'

Jaiswal's use of language is interesting. He equates Brahmana with 'the philosophical type' which just happens to fit the people in the SES who call themselves 'philosophers'. Certainly 'philosophical type', 'organising type' and 'enterprising type' are not the terms used in the Laws of Manu and it seems a bit of a stretch from Manu's words to Jaiswal's.

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: THE SES and THE LAWS OF MANU

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:53 pm

I would be interested in a discussion thread about Advaita. I have a book called 'Vedantic Meditation' by David Frawley. It covers Advaita without all the social/gender/caste nonsense and I think offers a good basis for living whether you believe in god(s) or not. I always found those aspects of SES teaching and practices very useful.


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