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Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:47 pm
by Gerasene Demon

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:08 pm
by Tootsie
Looking up Wikipedia about the Exorcism of the Gerasene Demoniac I now know where you are coming from Gerasene Demon and I would like to apologize for any offense you may have taken to one of my posts. I simply did not know your personal circumstances even though you left many clues. This is a problem on this forum as we really don't know much about the people posting.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:08 pm
by Gerasene Demon

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:43 pm
by Jo-Anne Morgan
Thank you, Dr.Alan, I've received the PM and it has cleared some things up. I'd like to echo Tootsie's thanks to you for your posts which are valuable to me and must have taken up a lot of your time.

Dear Mr Demon/Gerasene/Nutjob,
I hope you're not so unhappy all the time as comes across in your posts. That would be awful. My personal view is that David Boddy and the governors and teachers should bow down to you and the others affected and beg your forgiveness, to try to wash away the taint of those times. I don't suppose they will though and that is their folly.
Keep on keeping on, all the best,

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:54 pm
by Gerasene Demon

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:06 pm
by bluegreen
Yes I was hoping people would stop having a go at Gerasene who has not been secretive about the problems he has been left with by his run in with SES. I would also like to say that as a neutral person on the arguments on this thread I have found Dr Alan to be the one who has been speaking in a superior and condescending tone and making personal attacks. I am surprised that anyone could say a word again MOTS who keeps to facts and keeps personal attacks out of it.
My support to Gerasene Demon and MOTS. Thank you for speaking up for the other side. This is about support for SES survivors, surely. Not seeking out a new religion for them to follow. If you want to continue your seeking and learn all about Advaita or any other religious sect or movement there must be forums and websites for that. It is a bit insensitive to prowl around on the website formed for people who have escaped a religious sect telling them about another one. These people are addicts. It's like going onto a heroin survivors forum pedaling cocaine. Just let them talk about what happened to them and why it happened and find a strategy to prevent it happening again.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:37 pm
by Ahamty2
I couldn’t agree with you more Bluegreen. Dr Alan is using this Forum for his own agenda and having fallen out with the SES and The Study Society and found his new guru, he is pushing his own version of Hindu Mythology in the form of his view as to what Advaita Vedanta is supposed to be about. Hence his use of PM’s to recruit people to his fold.
While he hijacks this forum for his own purposes and agenda; not for what it was intended to be used. I can’t see any point in wasting my time on it. He should set up his own website for this purpose.
While his posts may appear to be noble with their lengthy explanations of Advaita Vedanta but refuses anyone questioning their content and being critical of them, he, then, reacts with intolerance. IMHO, Dr Alan is just being evangelical and frankly, ignorant!

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:24 am
by Dr.Alan
to Ahamty2 and others who do not want me on this forum,

I fully respect that this forum started off to help those who, in one way or another, had been abused by the regime at SES in those days-gone-by. This is especially true to those whose lives were abused as children. It is an unforgiveable crime to have treated children in the way they did.

The forum obviously serves a similar but quite distinct purpose for the adults, who also feel that SES has given a raw deal, dishonest and unbalanced. This also abuses peoples lives - and should be stopped.
But all things in the material world change with time. SES is clearly not the same as it was, neither are the schools. So I also respect that all things will change - and hopefully for the better.

Over time it is also clear that this forum was used by some members to discuss the various anomalies in the Advaita Vedanta philosophy itself, regardless of SES. This seems to have started some years ago. If the forum members did not want that change to the forum, then maybe it should have been stopped then. If that had been the case I would never have joined the forum nor would I have posted anything here at all.

In addition I am reliably informed that many existing SES members also read this forum. Also that their choice to stay or leave may well be affected by what they read here. This of course is an unintended use to which this forum is put, whether forum members like it or not. The truth about that is - we do not know how many SES people would like to leave for one reason or another. Or how the sort of thing they read here may help them to make that choice. Do we, who have discovered life on the other side, want to deny them that possibility????

I am happy to exit from the forum if that is the will of most of you. It is not my intention in any way to cause further distress or concern to anyone's life. This would be 100% against the standards that I live by. I only came here to bring some clarity and information from the 50 or more years that I have found of immense value from the study - and practice - of the Advaita Vedanta philosophy in my life. Only because I love to share things which I have found of value. Anyone and everyone is free to take it or leave it, I did not think that it was a rule of the forum that whatever is written must be accepted. I am a very busy man. I do not have any time for controversy - or time to waste on deaf ears.

All these negative comments about me can only come from the minds of those who harbour negativity in their lives. I have expressed over and over that I do not do that in any way at all. I only say this to encourage as many of you as possible to discover how much more life becomes happy when negativity is removed from it. But each one has to make their own choices in this subject.

So if you see less posts from me in future, it will be because I have decided on balance - from reading the comments about me and my posts - that it would be better in a positive way if I do not contribute any further information to this forum.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:11 am
by bluegreen
I would not want anyone to feel bullied out of the forum.
But can you imagine if lots of us who truly believed that if everyone on this forum converted to Islam or New Agism or paganism or Janism or Judaism (or i could go on and on and on) then they really would have a life worth living and find happiness or inner peace? And if they all wrote pages and pages of preaching and teaching and they all believed their way was the only way, the truth and the light, and pointed out the holes and faults in each others' religions because they had had 50 years' experience in it, then we would have nothing but a religious war on this forum.
Yes the forum has moved on from it's original purpose, but I don't think it has become a place to persuade ex SES or ex SES schools pupils, to believe what any one person on the forum believes in.
Don't leave if you are getting anything out of belonging to the forum, but if you are only contributing for the good of others and the potential saving of their souls, then I suggest you try another forum which has that purpose and keep to this one just for supporting those who have left SES and need to chew it over as they move on in their lives.
I personally don't believe that giving people more religious material to study is the kind of support that should be offered here, but it is not up to me. If that is what the forum has morphed into, then I will be the one to leave.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:22 am
by bluegreen
But I don't believe reaching out to those still in SES in the hopes of drawing them out is good either. If they are looking at the forum either to spy or because they are questioning whether leaving SES could be a possiblility for them, then all they need to see is that when people do leave, they are supported in this forum by others who have been there and survived it and maybe even found happiness. They need to see that non SES members can be kind and supportive and have a good moral code too. That being friends with SES people exclusively is not the only way. If they find us squabbling on here, then they may retreat back into the comfort of what they know. And people will squabble if you try to persuade them to think like you.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:05 pm
by ManOnTheStreet
Dr. Alan,

I appreciate your efforts to inform us of your take on Advaita. I think the only real issue that some of us found was that you seemed unwilling to enter into a meaningful discussion about what you posted. The fact that some of us raised queries regarding your assertions does not imply that what you said fell on "deaf ears" - quite the contrary in fact. When I say that you seem unwilling to discuss your beliefs it is not a negative comment about you personally; it is simply an observation based on the content and style of your writing. You say that "everyone is free to take it or leave it" and of course this is true, however looking at your more recent posts it did seem as if you adopted a somewhat condescending tone for those of us who chose not to believe your assertions. I am not saying this was your intention, but you can see what effect it might have on those of us who simply want to have a discussion about Advaita without our personalities being commented upon.

Obviously I cannot harbour negativity about you because I don't know you from a bar of soap. All I can do is respond to what you write. Given that we don't know each other, all we have is the words we write. As I have said before, clarity in writing is very important, particularly on a thread like this where the subject matter is more complicated. To be frank, I found your writing to be quite vague at times and this made it difficult to discuss matters in any depth. In any case, whatever your intentions, it was probably too much to instruct everyone to "empty their cups" when it didn't look as if you had emptied your own.

My own frame of mind might best be summed up by John Stuart Mill:

"To question all things; never to turn away from any difficulty; to accept no doctrine either from ourselves or from other people without a rigid scrutiny by negative criticism; letting no fallacy or incoherence, or confusion of thought step by unperceived; above all, to insist upon the meaning of a word clearly and precisely understood before using it, and the meaning of a proposition before assenting to it; these are the lessons we learn from ancient dialecticians."
(For the sake of clarity: when Mill says "negative criticism" he means "attempted disproof").

I try to bring these principles to bear when I address your claims. Moreover, I don't think these principles are particularly controversial.

It is not my will that you leave this forum. It is perhaps my desire that we might have an actual discussion about Advaita or any other claims you wish to put forward. That is, a reasoned (and mutual) analysis of those claims subject to the principles above. However, as I said in a previous post, if it is not your intention to enter into such a discussion then please let us know and we will refrain from interrupting you further.


Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:19 pm
by Gerasene Demon

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:25 pm
by Middle Way
bluegreen wrote:keep to this one just for supporting those who have left SES and need to chew it over as they move on in their lives.
bluegreen wrote:But I don't believe reaching out to those still in SES in the hopes of drawing them out is good either

I’m quite interested in those 2 views. I had certainly appreciated supporting those who've left SES was the main reason for setting up this forum. However, my contributions have frequently been directed to those readers still in the SES/SFSK/SOP and the other satellites, and those considering joining. One aim has been to encourage some existing students to come onto this forum in the hope we could have reasoned, non-emotive discussions. Such students could test what is said here, and if it's wrong they can speak to that. This can only help existing students to come to their own reasoned decisions to stay or leave their school, and for prospective students. But it’s clear that existing students are not keen on addressing anything said here, most probably because of fear, but also perhaps because often what is said here is true and defending the indefensible is not much fun.

Although I'm not so concerned about the Advaita Vedanta side of things, I found Dr.Alan's "mistakes" posts were utterly fascinating and I thought this can only help with this process. But StillatSES did do exactly what I was hoping would happen. He wanted to rebut the “mistakes” material then realised that from the teachings of SES, he could not and he very bravely in my opinion said so. He has my huge admiration for doing so. So I think those “mistakes” posts are very, very important and I thank Dr.Alan for taking the time and effort to prepare them. And if he has other things to say in this regard I would welcome reading them.

Dr. Alan has also shown there is life after SES. Surely this can only help and encourage those who have been in the schools for long periods of time and whose biggest fear in leaving is that they will lose touch with the philosophical or spiritual path/work/life - whatever we want to call it. I would have thought that others who also want the waverers in the schools to have possession of all the facts would be similarly grateful to him.

Having said that, I do agree that detailed discussions about Advaita Vedanta probably don’t belong on this forum, and I’m sure there would be many alternative sites for that purpose.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:04 pm
by bluegreen
StillatSES wrote:I have been going through a difficult process of re-evaluation all the years I have been at SES , and going back over all the teaching which has been given during all that time. So that I can come to some idea of whether SES has got it right or not. But what with the near obscenities written by GD, the personal attacks by Ahamty2 and the confusion mentioned above - I wonder if I might be better to stay where I am, rather than come out and join what I see going on here.

I was concerned that SES insiders may feel like this.
Now I suppose there is the risk of me being called an "idiot" again by GD. Well if that happens I will adopt Dr. Alan's approach of "Sticks and stones -- etc. " and become immune to the silly words of others.

Gerasene did explain why he used the word 'idiot' and you didn't complain about it until after he had apologised. Forgiveness when someone offers a heartfelt apology is probably going to make you feel happier within yourself, than reciting poems about sticks and stones to maintain some sort of immunity.
I agree though MW that Dr Alan's 'Mistakes...' essays did help someone within SES to ask questions though, which can only be a good thing.
The 'confusion' you mention though StillatSES, is debate. No one has to just accept other peoples' thoeries without question in the world you are reluctant to 'join'. But you may see that those debating are quite enjoying the experience.

Re: Mistakes against the Shankaracharya Tradition

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:46 pm
by Ahamty2
Dr.Alan wrote:to Ahamty2 and others who do not want me on this forum,.

Therein lies the problem Dr Alan. If you won’t play my way and by my rules I will take up my bat and ball and go home.
You make an assumption as to what someone is thinking by what you interpret has been said, when it is not there to read.
Nowhere will you find on this forum I have written nor implied that someone should leave this forum based on what they have said. I have questioned and queried their motives for writing a post. But I have never said for the person to leave that includes people from the SES who have the right to defend the organization if that is what they chose to do. If you accept Advaita Vedanta as the be all and end all of everything then you are completely free to do so, just as anyone else is free to follow whatever they wish.
You should be mature enough to realize that; this is the 21st century CE not the 21st century BCE. We talk about our "apps on our Tablet", we no longer unroll the smudged scrolls. Some of us have lived through and survived the Aryan Race madness where the few who feel superior that they are born to rule the many and the notion of the one true belief system. However, others will continue to try this psychological warped ideology and still do.
We are all gullible in some way or other , myself included, but life's experiences have taught me many bitter lessons including the SES but above all the Sydney SOP under Michael and Nina Mavro who used their position of control and power for their own end. This needs to be made known so others don't fall into the honey trap. There are many organizations who use the very same tried and proven methods of recruitment. That is the only reason I am on this forum and contribute to it. We all have lives to get on with before we leave it!