Nothing Wrong with SES

Discussion of the SES, particularly in the UK.
StillatSES
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:11 am

Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby StillatSES » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:44 pm

As for leonie - I see you also declare which school you left in 2009. If you do not mind I will remain anonymous for now.
Ahamty2 - these comments of yours are typical of so many on this forum. I would not have expected anything less of you.
Jo Anne M -- the children school subject was the subject of an independent inquiry - and has therefore been fully documented. It would be unrealistic not to accept those things which the enquiry documented.

All these other issues on this forum do not appear to have been officially documented in the same way. Hence the reason behind my comment.

What would be interesting to know is - if SES is so bad as some of you say - how is it you stayed so long.
No one ever said you cannot leave. You were not put in chains or imprisoned. So why did you not leave earlier. I would think most of you would not be able to answer that question in a way that many people would believe.

ManOnTheStreet
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby ManOnTheStreet » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:15 pm

Thank you for opening a new thread StillatSES,

StillatSES wrote:Ahamty2 - these comments of yours are typical of so many on this forum. I would not have expected anything less of you.


It might well be said that your own comments on the other thread were "typical" of someone still in the School. Obviously, saying this gets us nowhere - we have now established that all our responses are "typical", but that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether they are true or not.

StillatSES wrote:What would be interesting to know is - if SES is so bad as some of you say - how is it you stayed so long.
No one ever said you cannot leave. You were not put in chains or imprisoned. So why did you not leave earlier. I would think most of you would not be able to answer that question in a way that many people would believe.


In my case it was simply a matter of not knowing all the facts regarding the quality of the "teaching" we were getting. I genuinely thought it was all true, but now (obviously) I don't. Asking why I didn't leave earlier is a bit like asking why a baby can't recite Shakespeare. I reject the notion that remaining in or leaving the School is entirely the responsibility of the student in the same way that I reject the notion that victims of child abuse have only themselves to blame for not speaking up earlier than they do. There is clearly a psychological element here that cannot be dismissed so easily.

I recall that you said you would provide some facts of your own in relation to the issues raised in this forum, perhaps now would be a good time to do that.

MOTS

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Ahamty2 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:04 pm

So StillatSES from what you say in the above post is: “quod demonstradum erat” i.e. Q.E.D. Therefore, you are right and all of us on this forum are wrong. Saying so, does not make it so!
Well you haven’t proven anything yet.
This is typical SES arrogance.
Contributors on this forum are not speaking only from SES UK experiences, but also from the satellite schools in Ireland, Australia and NZ, yet their experiences have common themes. From the ‘whyaretheydead’ days to the present, the reasons people have stayed so long has been well and truly documented. I was in the SES in London and the Sydney SOP for 14 years, I have stated the reasons why I and my family stayed so long, more than once.
Dorine van Oyen walked away from the SES after giving her whole young life in dedicated service to your Leader and when she was wrongly dealt with under LM’s will left the SES. Why???? Do you place her in the same category as the rest of us!
Yes, the Townsend Enquiry is well documented, but when is the SES going to publicly acknowledge it and publicly apologize to all the victims? Also, why do you separate the treatment of the school children from the adults in the SES as the reasons are identical, why have the parents of many of these children also left the SES as well, having subjected their children to these treatments in good faith.

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby woodgreen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:50 pm

Oh Dear, Still in the SES. Did you swallow the SES version of the Laws of Manu? Your post went for the female posters, so you must have picked up the anti-female SES version. Shame on You, to coin a phrase.

Lots and lots wrong with the SES - hence the reason for this Forum.


Do you think we are all wrong for posting here?

woodgreen
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

Middle Way
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:46 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Middle Way » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:18 am

Hello StillatSES.

I was looking forward to your response to Dr.Alan's points about mistakes made by the SES. I was hoping for a well-reasoned, logical and careful examination and refutation of his major points (in contrast to the emotional name-calling which has characterised a few recent attempts at "refutation" on this forum). I was hoping that your response would be prepared with as much care as Dr.Alan seems to have taken with preparing his posts, which have probably taken him many hours.

I was looking forward to this because I am still interested in the search for Truth, and a well-crafted, reasoned and balanced response from someone still in the School could only help and inform this debate.

So why on earth would I want to consider any response from you under a thread you have called "Nothing wrong with SES"?

If I said to you that there is "nothing wrong" in the way I practise my profession would you believe me? Of course not. I frequently think about where I could have done better, what mistakes I made, how I could learn from them, in addition to acknowledging what worked well.

Any organisation – including the SES and its satellites – that honestly believes there is "nothing wrong" with it is doomed to failure. Because those organisations become lazy and complacent. They stop listening and they become inward-focused, self-serving and arrogant.

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby woodgreen » Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:31 am

And to add to my post, why are you still in the SES then? People leave when they leave, but have you not left yet stillatses? Why is that the case, if we may dare intrude, as you do here?

Speak freely but tread carefully, the SES have already trampled on my golden threads , if you know the misquotation.

woodgreen.
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Ahamty2 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:45 am

StillatSES wrote:
All these other issues on this forum do not appear to have been officially documented in the same way. Hence the reason behind my comment..


Would you, Donald Lambie et al and the board of the SES like and be prepared to accept to have members of this forum and their issues officially documented in the same way as the Townsend Inquiry? Psychological abuse is provable in the same way as physical abuse.The SES had a taste of what can occur in the public domain when Secret Cult was published and the media responses around the world noted it.
From what Dorine van Oyen said in her book "The Power Within" it certainly rattled LM. So I would be very careful about making remarks like above.
There has been talk over the years on this forum of an international class action against the SES and their satellite organizations and their Leaders. The SES and with all its wealth, assets and money and filled with members of the legal profession, does not place and cannot place itself above the law. Otherwise it will hold true the saying that Justice and the Law is an ass. Nevertheless, the media publicity would have its ultimate effect and conseqences.

Leonie
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Leonie » Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:06 am

StillatSES wrote:

If you do not mind I will remain anonymous for now.


I don't mind at all and look forward to reading what you have to say.

I just wanted to clarify that you are obviously not an official representative of the organisation and therefore your comments are your own opinion.

With best wishes, Leonie

Still Searching
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Still Searching » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:54 pm

First post after observing for quite some time. I was a member of the Perth SOP for 16 before leaving disillusioned. Over that time I learned a lot about SES having been to many residentials in Sydney, Melbourne and Waterperry. Like most people on this site I thought the School was the bees knees at the start but doubts started to creep in after about 10 years. Maybe I was a slow learner. After five or so years of darkness and doubt, despite being a 'model' student and senior tutor I eventually left in a state of depression. After 4 years however, I have returned with a completely different view. There is no doubt that SES was guilty of some not so 'spiritual' behaviour under the former regime and it certainly didn't seem to concur with the philosophy of Advaita as presented in the Scriptures.
Nonetheless, over the past 10 or 15 years I feel things have mellowed somewhat. Certainly in Perth, we have not really experienced some of the abuses mentioned in these various threads. The leaders obviously set the tone of the respective schools and we are fortunate to have had a leader who is open to the mood of the membership, to his credit. I have had my issues with SOP/SES but having returned I am more interested in the quality of the people, after all we are all seeking the same thing and all stumbling in the dark, even those who supposedly 'know'.
I trust in the philosophy of Advaita, as also the Christian, Buddhist and Sufi teachings. In the end we need to remember the teachings and forgive the errors of our human shortcomings.

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:10 pm

the children school subject was the subject of an independent inquiry - and has therefore been fully documented. It would be unrealistic not to accept those things which the enquiry documented


Yes, StillatSES, it should be unrealistic. However this hasn't necessarily been the case. The conclusions of the enquiry have been glossed over by the SES, an example of that is the Channel 4 programme with David Boddy some years ago. There is an unwillingness to acknowledge past wrong-doing which sticks in my craw. We should keep posting and keep complaining.

What would be interesting to know is - if SES is so bad as some of you say - how is it you stayed so long.
No one ever said you cannot leave. You were not put in chains or imprisoned. So why did you not leave earlier. I would think most of you would not be able to answer that question in a way that many people would believe.


The reasons why people are sucked into and stay in organisations like the SES are well-documented and apply in many of the cases here.
Last edited by Jo-Anne Morgan on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Still Searching
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Still Searching » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:15 pm

Jo-Anne Morgan, you make some good points but what, apart from posting on here are you going to do to bring some resolution to the situation? Can you do anything which will make a real difference? With respect, it is not good for your spiritual development to carry this stuff on. I am assuming you are interested in spiritual evolution otherwise you wouldn't have joined SES in the first place. Personally I trust in the Scriptures before the dogma of organisations. Having said that we, as individuals have more power than we give ourselves credit for. We are not victims, we actually have real power.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Ahamty2 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:25 am

Still Searching, your post begs the following questions in your response to Jo-Anne Morgan's post.

What is "spiritual development"? What is "spiritual evolution"? and What actually is "real power"?

How are they found in the "Scriptures" whatever is meant by scriptures and who gives all of these to you?

Your post in the "Mistakes" thread seems to contradict this post. I was in East Berlin in 1964, the "Wall" was up and people power had already began then for its removal but many had to die before it finally came down so others could be free!

Gerasene Demon
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Gerasene Demon » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:43 am

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Last edited by Gerasene Demon on Thu May 30, 2013 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Earlgrey
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Earlgrey » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:55 pm

Still Searching wrote:First post after observing for quite some time. I was a member of the Perth SOP for 16 before leaving disillusioned. Over that time I learned a lot about SES having been to many residentials in Sydney, Melbourne and Waterperry. Like most people on this site I thought the School was the bees knees at the start but doubts started to creep in after about 10 years. Maybe I was a slow learner. After five or so years of darkness and doubt, despite being a 'model' student and senior tutor I eventually left in a state of depression.

Hello, Still Searching,
Can you tell us the nature of the doubts you refer to? I am still in SOP in Sydney and have been there for a long time and my expectations of what it's philosophy will achieve have been significantly lowered. And you know, this philosophy was supposed to dispel doubt. I'm not sure describing the difficulties as being due to being a slow learner is valid. What exactly were you slow to learn?
I am asking this not to be critical of you but I am trying to understand my own dissatisfaction with the state of play. Maybe your answers could help. Also, how could you allow yourself to remain a senior tutor when you knew you were in darkness and doubt? And why do you think nobody came to help you? Surely in the climate of the spiritual world which the School must exist in, if it is a valid school, couldn't some fearless being, who knows and understands your fears, step up and help you? What would they have to fear?
I know from my own experience that the organisation told me that participating regardless of my mental state was a satvic action and was cleansing the being etc. That might have been alright in the beginning but after a few decades, in my case, it's better to start looking at the real issues. You know the questions, who am I etc? I know one thing it's not going to happen in an organisational setting that's for sure.
There's lots more to discuss.........

Dr.Alan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Postby Dr.Alan » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:29 pm

Earlgrey,

we should ask the question, "Why did anyone from SES go to Shantanand Saraswati in the first place?" OR RATHER "Why did Dr. Francis Roles (Leon MacLaren's first teacher) from the Study Society seek for decades answers to the questions left to him by P.D. Ouspensky, and eventually say that he had found those answers from Shantanand Saraswati in India?" After which he continued to go to India with many more questions to the same teacher almost until the day he died.

If the answer is that -- they realised they could not get to the bottom of this knowledge of the True Self , without asking someone who has discovered it for themselves. Then the next question is, "Has anyone at SES yet discovered it for themselves - especially the leaders ?"

If the answer to that is "yes" then "why do they still need to go to one of Shantanand's successors ?"
If the answer is "no". then the next question is - "why are you still at SES after all these decades????"

That last one is the real big one. Because if they have not discovered it - they will never be able to show you the answer - you will be doing what Dr. Roles did - decades and decades - then eventually he found a true teacher.

I knew Dr. Roles very well - and I would say he personally got more from questions to Shantanand Saraswati than the Study Society ever did. It doesn't work by mass production methods - it only works on an individual (one to one) basis - if the people in India have not worked out a mass production method for Self-Realisation over all these thousands of years - surely you do not think the decadent, egocentric, materialistic, spiritually ignorant people of the Western world are going to come up with one in just a few decades.

For Gerasine D -- I expect you will make an irrelevant comment about this. Be my guest GD - but please try to follow the point of what people are saying when you make your comments.

For stillatSES -- now tell me there is nothing wrong with SES.

best wishes
Last edited by Dr.Alan on Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.


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