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Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:19 am
by Middle Way
Hello StillatSES. Just to add my support to AT's comments about your honesty and strength, which you have shown in abundance. I also agree with his main recommendation to you:
actuallythere wrote:I recommend you continue on the simple course of inquiry and analysis, it is no more nor less than that.
You have entered (quite suddenly) into that period of ambivalence which I have posted about before. I agree it is important to take your time, there is no rush, and to weigh up your reasons (not those of others) for staying and leaving.

And you are quite correct in saying:
StillatSES wrote:But I am sure that there are many on this forum who may be able to help me if I do decide to leave.

AT is also correct in saying
actuallythere wrote:Another great resource is this forum - infinite amounts of support and love can be found here. It just might not be recognizable at first.
So well expressed as usual. I speak from experience - I have received a good deal of help and love from so many on this forum (and, in the UK, particularly from Leonie who has sent me some excellent PM's). Contributors here were recently colourfully described as "a few intolerant people in a frenzied self serving witch hunt out of the darkness of their own minds”, but of course the truth is quite different.

All the very best to you. There is much fear involved with leaving a place where one has felt so much at home for so long. But as many have said, once you're out, the freedom from fear is very peaceful.


Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:54 am
by sydneykatieking
StillatSES wrote:As for leonie - I see you also declare which school you left in 2009. If you do not mind I will remain anonymous for now.
Ahamty2 - these comments of yours are typical of so many on this forum. I would not have expected anything less of you.
Jo Anne M -- the children school subject was the subject of an independent inquiry - and has therefore been fully documented. It would be unrealistic not to accept those things which the enquiry documented.

All these other issues on this forum do not appear to have been officially documented in the same way. Hence the reason behind my comment.

What would be interesting to know is - if SES is so bad as some of you say - how is it you stayed so long.
No one ever said you cannot leave. You were not put in chains or imprisoned. So why did you not leave earlier. I would think most of you would not be able to answer that question in a way that many people would believe.[/quote

Anyone who doesn't by now understand how it was that well-meaning and trusting idealists were sucked into the sham schools of SES/SOP simply have not been paying attention - or respecting - the real experiences of those who have survived to tell their stories on this forum, which, I believe, is 10 years old and still going strong because it offers a healthy and beneficial outlet for those who love to speak truth to power. Anyone who has read the multiple postings on this forum and has not been touched or moved by our sincerity, lacks a certain basic sensitivity and compassion for the human condition.

For myself, an 11-year+ inmate of Sydney SOP (1969-1980), I stayed because I had a sense of ownership in SOP and trusted for ages that Mickey and La Nina would wake up to themselves and start practicing what they preached. Their example to us for truthful and virtuous living left much to be desired, but then they were not the school, the students were. There was the Teaching, which for a long time, I thought had real substance, and then there were these mongrels, the Mavros, pretending they were something they were not.

Like someone caught in a bad marriage, many of us stayed in, believing, hoping that any day now, things would get better. Some of us stayed in to save our marriages, because La Nina actively mettled in and interfered in our families and marriages. She delighted in driving wedges between husbands and wives and people stayed in SOP to save the marriage. She told wives to threatened their husbands with leaving them if they left the school. She directly instructed parents to physically assault, slap, their children in the face if they spoke the slightest doubt about SOP. She encouraged domestic violence, husbands hitting wives.

Nothing wrong with SES, you say. SES's Big Cheese, Leon McLaren, failed to provide appropriate and effective oversight and supervision of one of his school-spawn and he was just as responsible for the corruption and suffering as Mickey and La Nina. Just wait until you wake up to the negative agenda these sham schools are spreading. Then you just might understand. The strongest restraints and chains are often the ones you don't even feel. Cheers from a happy survivor of that mind-trap called the School of Philosophy.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:06 am
by Tootsie
A lot of people joined the SOP to experience Sat-Chit-Ananda A combination of three Sanskrit words, Sat, Chit, and Ānanda— meaning existence, consciousness, and bliss. Sat Chit Ananda is the pure, undifferentiated state of non-duality. It is the most perfect expression of our primordial Self. which is energetically inseparable from the power of Love creating the universe. To reside in this state is the experience of pure Bliss, the essence of Life Itself.

OK we all know the theory but has anybody in any of the various schools experienced the above? Could the Mavro's be described as ever being in a blissful state radiating compassion and love? In my 14 years in school nobody ever reached such a state including the visiting leaders from overseas. It took me 14 years to realize that the SOP and their imitation spirituality fooled a lot of unsuspecting people into investing their time, energy, dedication and money into the organization.

Life is short don't waste it on imitation spirituality. With humility keep seeking until you find a true spiritual teacher. You will know him by his pure love and devotion to God.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:49 pm
by actuallythere
Hello StillatSES,

How have you been keeping in the last few weeks since we last heard from you?

You mentioned about time commitment, which is a theme everyone familiar with SES can relate to. I once looked at it in comparison to religious observance. In my observation it is standard for SES members to meditate 7 hours per week, attend 3 classes as tutor or student for at least 2 hours each totaling 6 hours, plus at least 3 hours travelling to get there. Additionally there is homework and planning of at least 1 hour per week. That's a baseline total of 17 hours per week - to which study days, weekend retreats and week-long retreats are added, plus Art in Action and any personal or professional favors SES may ask for. Annually that averages at the very least to 20 hours per week of time commitment. As far as I'm aware a practicing Christian, Hindu, Muslim or another other person who considers themselves religious would attend their place of worship once per week and pray for about half an hour per day at most, for a total of around 6 hours per week. That might of course come up to an average of about 10 hours per week if the person does religious charity work or help look after the place of worship. So one way of looking at it is that SES has double the time commitment of a religion and about the same as a part-time job. That is compelling fact in itself, which begs further questions: why does a spiritual organization which says it is not a religion expect double the time commitment of a religion? What impact does the time commitment have on members careers, families and stress levels? Does busyness enable clarity of thought? Does it enable autonomous decision making? Does it enable people to know themselves? Or could it result in a form of intoxication masquerading as awareness, in which people do quite the opposite and in fact lose themselves?

Obviously, this time arrangement has been established thanks to the choices made by the leadership of SES. I think it is worth considering who these individual personalities are, because it might offer an indication of what has motivated them to design the organization in this way. I have always found it conspicuous that (i) Maclaren was a politician, (ii) Sinclair was in advertising, (iii) Lambie was a barrister and (iv) Boddy was in public relations. All four professions are dedicated to the art of persuading a group of people to chose to do what they want them to do; (i) voting for your party, (ii) buying your product and (iii) accepting your case and (iv) believing in your client's virtue. In all four cases, this can involve indoctrination and other forms of social and psychological influence. It entails establishing a form of power over people's minds. It is important to think about this, if we want to understand what is driving the individuals who created this organization.

You said that you found some of the literature I mentioned very interesting. It would be useful for all of us to know which texts you have been reading and what was interesting about them to you. What resonated in particular? It would be great if you could provide a few quotations.

You also said that you began to question the nearly 30 years of your life that have been given over to something that you are now uncertain about. You talked us through your contemplation of leaving, and then of you becoming aware that so much of your time is given over to it, and that there was a shocking sense of being addicted. Fear ensued, and then a sense of the person that you were so many years ago - you referred to it as your "real person" but that you had become very different from that by degrees.

These are profound experiences for anyone to go through, very reminiscent of a transformation of the self. Please could you talk through these experiences some more? I'm certain that it is very important.

Who was that person 30 years ago? In what way were they different to who you are now? Is that person still inside you? How did that person leave you? If you were not that person for much of those thirty years, then what were you?

And if people around you watched that person of 30 years ago change by degrees, what was it like for them to lose that person? If you have children, did they go through a feeling of losing you as your "real person" at that time, feelings of loss which you might not have gone through at the time yourself?

And where had that person of 30 years ago come from? Did they come from a place where they felt loved, where they could express their thoughts and emotions, where these were heard, and understood? Did they come from a place where they were given guidance about how to go forward into the world with strength and independence? What where they looking to find? And, if the person you are today could go back in a time machine to the person of 30 years ago, what would you tell them?

Also, could you go into a little more detail about the sense of fear that you felt when considering these experiences? Were you afraid of losing something you have? Or is it fear of what you might find? And if so, please talk us through the various possibilities of what you might find, that are going through your mind.

Warm regards,


StillatSES wrote:Dear AT,

My apologies for the delay - but I was looking into some of the literature which you kindly pointed me towards. And I have found it very interesting. I must say that many of things you said in your post a few days ago, set me thinking in a new way. I even began to question that nearly 30 years of my life have been given to something which I cannot say with certainty has given me back the sort of realisation which Dr. Alan has mentioned.

You may be interested - but I have even introduced the thought into my own mind of leaving SES, only to find out what effect it had on me. To my shock and surprise I began to get a sense of the addiction which you mentioned in your post. It seemed an almost impossible thing to consider leaving, as so much of the time in my life is given to the school at present. I began to wonder what I would do with my life. Maybe you and some others can describe to me what it actually felt like after you left SES. Especially if anyone had been there for many years.

On realising the fear of what it might be to leave SES , I then began to get a sense of the real person that I was so many years ago, and that I had become very different from that by degrees - as you had said. For me at this stage it would take courage to make the break. But I am sure that there are many on this forum who may be able to help me if I do decide to leave. I guess I will have to change stillatSES to another tag then.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:58 am
by StillatSES
Thanks AT for your concern for my welfare. I am not sure that I can accurately answer all your questions. As you probably know people at SES are not really allowed to read books out side of a certain prescribed list. So to be honest to my current commitment (at that time) to SES I could not purchase books of the kind which were mentioned - but I did search the internet for help of the kind you suggested and found corroborative information to support the approach to cults etc. which others on this forum were talking about. But I cannot remember the specific sites now as I did not make note of them.

I have discussed leaving SES with a senior tutor. But as you can imagine, this was met with a standard barrage of pre-determined statements - those which I have used myself when people have come to me in the past about leaving (i.e. I was a tutor myself once). So this time, with some confidence and support which forum members have given me, I asked the tutor why he did not want me to leave? Was it because he wanted me to stay - or was it because he was told to prevent me from leaving? Questions like that. This was met with silence at first. Then the comments like "really we are having this discussion to find out what your problem is - not trying to invent a problem for me." But I pressed the question and saw that the tutor was really unable to think for himself when he had run out of "tape recorded" as it were, statements. I almost got an agreement that it might be a good thing to have a break from it all. But when I suggested to the tutor that he might also benefit from such a break, he almost retracted the idea as a mistake of some kind. See the hypocrisy.

By putting these statements up on this forum, I realise that I have now identified myself to that senior tutor (i.e. if he reads the forum - which I do not know one way or the other) . But I knew that this would happen before I posted this, it really makes no difference to me as I have decided to leave any way. This will happen when I have said my goodbyes to some of the people I have known for many years and who are good friends really. I will be sorry to loose them. But life must go on. I am now certain that I will need to go through a period of finding my old self again, and starting to live my life by making decisions which are not part of a kind of corporate block decision etc. you know what I mean. I may come on the forum but with a different name. I will let you know that the new name was once StillatSES.

I want to thank all forum members who have supported me and through private messages have been very caring and kind at a time when I was finding it painful to make the decision. But be sure - there is no turning back now - as I have definitely realised that SES is a false, arrogant and pretentious place to be. I look forward to finding out what real value there may be in the philosophy tradition of India. So Dr. Alan and the like - watch out for me - here I come. (soon).

Best wishes


Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:07 pm
by woodgreen
Good for you StillatSES.!! I admire your decision and the way in which you have chosen to leave the SES.
Looking forward to your new name and your posts on the Forum.

good luck


Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:40 am
by actuallythere
Dear StillatSES

Thank you for the reply. Certainly, my questions are for you to do with as you please and there is no pressure for you to answer them to anyone other than yourself.

I'm really impressed with your perseverance, your positive assertiveness with your tutor, and your candor here. Never hesitate to discuss things here if you want to, as very many people here have been along the path that you have just embarked on.

I do wish you the best of luck, and I'm not sure that you even need it. I'm very proud of you.


Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 am
by Middle Way
Same messages as the above from me, StillatSES.

All the best to you.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:49 pm
by bluegreen
Well done and good luck. I hope the discoveries of your new found freedom and time, are interesting and exciting. You can start by buying whatever books you like.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 10:37 pm
by ManOnTheStreet
I can only reiterate what others have said - it's really good to see you're moving on to better things StillatSES. Thank you for your honesty and all the time you put into contributing to this forum. We all appreciate it and I wish you all the very best in your future endeavours.


Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:00 am
by Ella.M.C.
Hello StillatSES,

I have appreciated your posts with their honesty.
It is a very hard thing to leave such an organisation ..
Unless of course something major occurs, that really
wakes you up.
Every good wish to you, and I hope you still contribute here.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:46 pm
by sydneykatieking
Dear StillatSES:

I, too, want to support your decision to step out and act on what you know to be true. When I left Sydney SOP after over 11 years, I felt rather weird at first, somewhat odd, with my new/renewed entry into the human race again. It is a natural and normal state of readjustment, some period of disorientation which occurs and then passes. You will succeed and land on your feet.

Leaving SOP, for the toxic, ignorant, system it is, was one of the best decisions I've ever made. I look back with amazement at how I ever let myself be so hood-winked, tricked and scared of my own shadow by these spiritual charlatans, liars and bullies, Mickey and Nina Mavro and their London-based thug masters. It was a great relief to no longer have "tickets" on myself, to use the Aussie idiom, to no longer pretend to be elite, special, different, an "Aristocrat of the Universe," for gods sake. And, of course, there is no Outer Darkness, that odious foolishness designed to scare little children, or grown-ups behaving like little children. The only Outer Darkness is that sick separation from other people, of feeling superior and better than others. We only fooled ourselves.

What happens to that 'family of school' stuff?: this is what happened to me. I found out who was my friend when I left. People I had known in SOP for many years, our children raised together, been in the same groups together, in each other's homes, well, they cut me dead in the street, averting their faces as if I were the devil-incarnate. And they did that to my dear son, too, who had been in SOP for 9 years. He was among the very first victims of the SOP children's groups. How these SOP fair-weather friends justified their disrespect and cruelty to us is anyone's guess, how they might think such behavior served some higher spiritual purpose. It hurt at first...for a few seconds. You have to feel sorry for people who do that to a child. It served to reassure me that we had made the right decision to get away from these vipers and false friends. Such behavior only reflected on them, not us. We were free of all that sham phoney SOP slop. Perhaps you will find that you made true friends in your sham-school and you will keep those healthy relationships. People who believe in personal freedoms and liberties, the right to your own decisions, life-style, career, food, reading matter, music, your life!

The world is good. People are good.

Good on ya' mate.

Cheers from America.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:32 pm
by Ella.M.C.
Hi sydneykatieking,

Thank you for the smile you have put just on my face ..

Your words were great, true, and I can relate to every bit!
It's good to see the funny side of it.

And yes ..
"We only fooled ourselves"

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:14 am
by sydneykatieking
. . . just a little Postscript to my post to StillatSES:

When I made the decision to free myself and child from Sydney SOP and the people who did not have our best interests at heart, I found it emotionally beneficial to remember that no one was giving our lives back; we were taking it back.

And that, to borrow from Robert Frost, made all the difference.

Cheers from Texas.

Re: Nothing Wrong with SES

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:52 pm
by StillatSES
Hi All,

your comments are all heartening. It seems all the really nice people have left SES type organisations, and got together in places like this forum. What a wonderful place SES would be if it had happened the other way round. i.e. the ignorant ego types were expelled by the good ones - leaving only the good ones behind.

And I find the phrase "We only fooled ourselves." very eye opening. I wonder if Dr.Alan or others have any views on that. i.e. all associated with SES are subjected to similar things in many ways. What is it, I wonder, which has a detrimental effect on some people, but appears not to affect others ???? Is something inside the person where the difference lies ??

best wishes