Thank you Bella!

A place for discussions that don't fit elsewhere.
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Free Thinker
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Thank you Bella!

Postby Free Thinker » Fri Jul 01, 2005 5:58 pm

I just wanted to make a specific thread thanking Bella for her participation in this forum. With her first few posts, I felt that she was very naive and was not going to be helpful. (Unless I'm getting her mixed up with someone else, which is possible since the search feature isn't letting me view her early posts...) However, as she has participated more and more, I have really grown to appreciate her participation. I think that having a member who is willing to take our thoughts and opinions seriously while not taking the attitude of "The SES is great, what's wrong with you people!" that I have seen from some other posters in the past, is very valuable.

While we may disagree with her and she with us, I think she is trying hard to participate and I think it makes some of the discussions more balanced.

So, Thank you!!!

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bella
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Postby bella » Sat Jul 02, 2005 12:37 pm

I'm seriously floored, FT, so thanks.

I do hope you're confusing me with someone else re: the earlier posts, but I'll live with it if you're not. ;)

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:41 pm

The search function is having problems, which Daffy is trying to fix, which means that if I look up your posts (which I did), I can see them, and the first sentence of each, but not actually click to link to each of them.

I remember responding to a woman and saying that I thought she was pretty naive, and how old was she, etc. It may have had to do with marriage.

If it wasn't you, I take it back! If it was you, well, I find your posts to be quite honest and caring, so who cares what I thought after the first one or two?

I also posted in response to something Xmember said that it seems that you are in a unique position of being a current member of a fairly new school. That obviously makes a difference, since, unless you are just making it up, have a lot more freedom than exists in the older schools. (and I don't think you're making it up. :))

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bella
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Postby bella » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:40 pm

FT, I was talking to my husband about this tonight. I do believe that I am in a somewhat privileged position as far as the school goes. The school I'm in has been in existence for about 12 years, and I've been a member for about 8. I do think we're incredibly fortunate to have the school leader we have, and this is echoed by students I meet on residentials from other cities around the area.

Being in a school that's been in operation for 12 years is somewhat different to being in one that's been going along for 70 years. There are going to be new things brought into play, and there are going to be new things that actually appear as options. I can fully appreciate the fact that life as an I student in the London school may be very different to life as an I student in my school. I, personally, don't have the weight of 70 years of tradition influencing my every step, and being interpreted and enforced by a large number of fellow students. I have those 70 years as an indicator, spoken of by my school leader and others in text - one takes a circumstantial approach as to whether or not various aspects of those 70 years' teaching will be maintained as read in this particular situation. When at the Sydney school, I have a few more decades of tradition to traverse, observe, and yeah, even benefit from.

No mistake, tradition is spoken of as a good, stabilising thing - equally, people's reasonable recognition of their own circumstances is seen as perfectly valid in deciding a course of action.
Last edited by bella on Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Keir
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Postby Keir » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:14 pm

I second FT's thoughts about you Bella.

It is important that although this BB has become a much needed place for past pupils and SES members to feel safe in criticising the regime that so deeply affected them, it is also useful to be reminded that not everyone on the site has shared the same experience.

Even though I find some of the views challenging it does help to broaden the perspective to include intellectual exploration as well as emotional exploration. I believe that both are necessary for constructive healing.

The fact that you have stuck around on the site is to your credit, and I hope that it has helped broaden your perspective too.

Please keep posting

:fadein:

Gandalf
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Ah to be in a young school!.....

Postby Gandalf » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:15 pm

Dear Bella,
you are clearly having a whale of a time with your mates down in Brisbane and good luck to you, sport.

Your staunch and touchingly naive defence of the good things in the 'teaching' reminds me of a devout Catholic disciple in a remote Brazilian village in the 1980's loudly protesting the merits of the Church of Rome whilst never having even been to Rio.

The fact that you were locally blessed with a Communist priest who happily handed out contraceptives secure (temporarily) from the long arm of Rome did not make Catholicism any more valid as an ideology.

Whilst you basked in the simple honesty and social cohesion of your local church in the rainforest, paedophile priests in Boston plied their version of the same teaching in Catholic schools whilst in Rome the Pontiff turned a blind eye.
Well your pontiff is in Oz at the moment on his 'world tour' pontificating to the 'Colonials'.

Why don't you go down to Sydney to the flash Mahratta residence or across the border to Melbourne and ask him for example why, and on what authority, he recently ordered the school leaders worldwide to shun Lehmann for 'disobedience'? or why, when I was standing next to him a few years ago, he permanently and without brooking any discussion expelled from my group, on the phone, someone who had been in the school for 25 years for failing to turn up on the first evening of a residential?

Pull out the golden stopper, Bella...let out reality...but on second thoughts, why should you? Sweet dreams....keep eating the salami (slooowly!).....and watch out for the heartburn when you wake up...

regards, Gandalf

HoHumBug
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Of simpletons and Levis

Postby HoHumBug » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:31 am

bella wrote:By the way, several years ago, I wore jeans to serve tea and coffee because of time constraints, and didn't have a word directed at me. This (dress rules) is something that is said to students considering second-line work (service type activities), but nobody is going to burn you at the stake if you can't manage it sometimes. If you can't manage it EVER because of personal beliefs, then don't do second-line work. Simple.


Ooh! you wicked thang! You wore XXXX trousers and didn't have a word directed at you... how remarkable! One slice of School of Economic Salami at a time is clearly the norm in Brisbane like everywhere else in the early parts of SES to keep the numbers up but "No second line of work"...whatever next! Gurdjie and Mac must be turning in their graves (well the latter was cremated actually but metaphorically anyway)...simple? Yes Bella you are indeed very simple.

I strongly advise you to ignore Gandalf's suggestion to visit your pontiff, you should stick firmly to the rainforest. You should have no truck with those silly Europeans with all their habitual baggage masquerading as 'tradition'. Keep wearing them Levis gal and keep away from Lambie's annual visits to your parts (public or private -visit I mean).

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bella
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Postby bella » Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:56 pm

I appreciate FT's and Keir's words here, and it's probably also good for HoHum, gandalf and others to have somewhere to flame me where it won't get in the way of their reasonable and informed discussions elsewhere. A lot of good points can be overlooked because of an unnecessary sarcastic slanging match, and though I don't plan to get involved in one, I do plan to participate in some other threads. So it's possibly better to keep the generalised belittling here, and save the specific belittling for the relevant threads. ;)

I'm honestly sorry your experiences were traumatic, and I have no doubt your experiences with the school are as valid as my own. Maybe I don't preface my comments with that, but it is the case. I don't question your right to challenge what I type - and even to make personal attacks if you want to - but I'm not sorry my experiences haven't echoed yours. If I'd had your experiences, too, I might feel differently - but reading about incidents that I might think are unreasonable or even despicable doesn't make me want to quit the school I'm in. Assuming I don't question people about what I read here is an error, though.

HoHumBug
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Of simpletons and Levis

Postby HoHumBug » Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:33 pm

Ooooooooooooooooh! Bella you are categorised as a valued contributor by virtue of the number of postings you have made but do you really think your experiences in a remote young school in Oz are ultimately relevant to the whole purpose and thrust of this web site except as a perfect example of an SES attendee in the process of getting sucked in without noticing?

But have you read leonmich's recent postings or any of the strings relating to St James? This is the meat and potatoes of the site. Given the opportunity and the money are you planning to send your child to the John Colet school aged 4yrs 4 months and 4 days as directed by the Shankaracharya? Are you moving to Sydney in order to make this happen? If not, why not?

We are pleased for you that you are having a good time and we recognise your entirely valid description as the standard 'early SES' (pre Part 36 or so) social experience.

Many of us have been there and got that particular t-shirt but that does not make your postings equally relevant any more than a couple of dozen scientists paid for by Exxon to state that global warming isn't happening is to be taken as a balanced counter to the tens of thousands of scientists who have independently concluded the opposite.

Is this supposed to be some kind of DEMOCRATIC web site whose veracity is measured by the NUMBER of postings or the NUMBER of words in each posting?

Before you get all upset it is NOT being suggested you are paid to defend the SES. Your spontaneous eulogies are undoubtedly genuine.
The Exxon analogy above is merely to illustrate the fatal flaw of the media's obsession with so called 'balanced' argument which you seem also to be arrogating to yourself by default in respect of the SES.

You give the impression of someone waving a condom above their head in the aisle of the Catholic chapel in the Brazilian rainforest as proof of the liberality of your organisation's beliefs.

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Postby Free Thinker » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:59 pm

What the hell was that, HoHumBug?

I evaluate a posting or member's stance based upon what he/she has said, not on the number of postings or how long he/she has been a member. Who else has said that but you? Has Bella said anything about being a "valued member" because her post count is getting up there?

Since you obviously haven't noticed, this board is NOT just about St. James. If so, the thread would be called "General discusson on St. James" instead of "General discussion on SES" and quite a number of us posters, in fact a HUGE number, who have really contributed to the existence of this forum (a forum with only a few posters isn't much of a forum at all) would not be here since we haven't not attended St. James.

Your global warming analogy isn't really working. Bella isn't trying to assert that none of what we have experienced is going on - she's merely explaining how it is different in the PARTICULAR school she attends.

The fact that current members of the school (and remember, NYC is a current student as well) are willing to participate in this forum with an open heart and mind is actually quite extraordinary. I'm sure the school would look down upon their participation quite severely. Both of them have learned things about the SES from their participation that they would not have learned otherwise, and addressed those issues with their tutors. Whether the tutor's responses were serious at all, it's a place to start.

More to come...

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:54 pm

So what is anybody actually saying here? Sorry, I'm sure Bella is a very nice person. But I don't buy Donald Lambie, if that's who you mean, dismissing someone after 25 years membership etc. I mean, I thought SES tried to keep hold of people. What's the point of eating salami if you then have it forcibly taken from you? And is kicking someone out a bad thing for them or a good thing? Some people would surely think it was a good thing for the 'victim'. But, like I said, I don't buy it. I understand that students of SES on occasion do miss the first day, the first half, the entirety of a 'residential' and there's no black mark. There's no black book. Nobody has the authority, to answer the question, to make anyone do anything they don't want to do. Although I suppose it is possible for the SES to kick somebody out. They can't do much else. And what's this about Catholics? C'mon. You deal with Bella's sweet positivity by saying she knows nothing about the London school and what really goes on. But maybe she does. Maybe nothing really goes on. Then there's a pat on the back for a brave SES student, braving the wrath of the SES who would jump on her waving condoms (or something, I'll have to read back) for participating in this forum. Who says the SES would disapprove? Who, in the SES would disapprove and how would that disapproval be exercised? It's all surmise. It's not much better than a thread I read somewhere - there's a lot of it, do you people have social lives? - that says if SES is similar to this wacky cult in America and they must be because we think they're wacky and a cult, then they must have sex through a hole in a sheet and eschew motor vehicles. Weird of them, huh?

Gandalf
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Shopping

Postby Gandalf » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:30 pm

Frodo,
You can't refuse to 'buy' what I am not selling. I am merely reporting what happened a few years ago in my presence in the sitting room of the suite at Waterperry (for the avoidance of doubt that's the room on the NW corner of the first floor of the main house with the sherry decanters and the crystal glasses in the cabinet). Unless you are Lambie in disguise you weren't there so what you think on the matter is wholly irrelevant.

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Re: Of simpletons and Levis

Postby mgormez » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:57 pm

HoHumBug wrote:Ooooooooooooooooh! Bella you are categorised as a valued contributor by virtue of the number of postings you have made but do you really think your experiences in a remote young school in Oz are ultimately relevant to the whole purpose and thrust of this web site except as a perfect example of an SES attendee in the process of getting sucked in without noticing?


Come on, lighten up. If you don't like Bella, then skip her postings, but don't start this lame fight determing whose worth or not here. To me she's is as welcome as anyone else is (well, those who are not totally nuts).
Mike Gormez

NYC
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Postby NYC » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:58 pm

Ho Hum bug (in a different thread) wrote:Keir has?encapsulated one of the most insidious aspects of the SES: the vanity of 'being in the know'

Gandalf, in this last post you are quite nicely EMBODYING the vanity of ?being in the know? yourself. We get it, you used to drink sherry with Lambie cause you were so high up in the hierarchy. Big whoope.

But whatever made you throw it all away?

And I agree with Bella, let's keep the sarcastic slanging match to this thread.

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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:02 am

Since it's my thread, I'd say, let's not have any slanging matches at all!

I started this, obviously, to thank Bella for her participation in this forum despite the fact that so many posts speak very negatively about an organization she is personally involved in. That takes guts when you aren't a troll.

Nothing's ever going to change in the SES without people who can take a look at what is going on in the school, and while supporting the school itself, analyzing things that need changing.

One way to do this is to speak with people who have personal experience and opinions about what needs to change.

Frodo - surely you know that the SES likes to have it's fingers in all the parts of your pie. People who are heavily involved DO have a lot to lose because the SES can very easily ostrasize them. If the leadership decides that someone should leave - that person isn't really going to want to keep going. And when leaving, they'll lose their friends and social supports, activity partners, way of life, and possibly their child's school (if said child attends an SES school.) Not everyone who leaves is excommunicated (my mother still has many friends who are still members) but I know of many people of whom nobody spoke of after they were gone. It was as if they had never been there. While I may personally think this is better than still being a member, it's certainly very scary for someone contemplating actions or discussions that might spark such a "kick out". And since the SES is so sure that being a member offers you the TRUTH, you're certainly not going to get another chance to become enlightened. ..


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