The Melbourne School

Discussion of the SES' satellite schools in Australia and New Zealand.
User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Sun May 21, 2006 4:43 pm

Dietary recommendations, Alban? You're suggesting we have the dietary recommendations in the initial advertising? Doesn't that sound a little strange, even to you?

Your first post of "suggestions" was certainly read with the idea that once I said "I don't think that would be a great idea to have in the initial adverts", you'd come back with "what do you have to be ashamed of"? In answer, yeah - we have an advertising director on the marketing team at the moment, as well as someone with experience in promoting their own businesses. Apart from that, the rest are newbies to the advertising world. Nevertheless, I know enough to know that advertising that "a diet of such-and-such will be offered on residential several years down the track" is not exactly a marketing tool. Not necessarily something to be ashamed of - just kinda irrelevant and likely to make people scratch their heads and ask "wtf?"

Alban
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:23 am
Location: London

Postby Alban » Sun May 21, 2006 7:19 pm

Why not Dietry recomendations? Lots of religions have dietary requirements, why should the SES be any different. Besides which, they may win some cudos with vegetarians - remember, it is the product.

It was quite strange that you should pick up on diet as I would have thought that was pretty much the least controversial of the subjects that I mentioned...does that mean that you'd be happy to promote the SES' intollerance to homosexuality...(it's ok, I'm just joshing, although the point is valid).

Actually, you said

bella wrote:...Others I think are very much more at home on an "expose" website than in an advert for an organisation.


and

bella wrote:...an advert like you suggest would be quite long, and sort of unclear whether the ad was endorsing it or warning people against it


so it's a little bit more than "I don't think that would be a great idea to have in the initial adverts". I mean...what is there to expose?..what is there warn people of? My point being that you believe in the product (don't you), so why are you not happy to promote the things you believe in - why hide them away?

The other thing is, I didn't say anything about "the initial advertising", or anything about an advert - you said marketing so I assumed you meant marketing and not advertising. I suggested that as part of the marketing process you should make it your duty to inform people of exactly what the product is - and those were the areas that I picked.

I guess my point is, that everybody knows that you'd have to give up pork if you wanted to follow judaism, or beef to become a hindu or pre-marital sex to become a catholic...("Well, it's a lot better than pork!" [sic Dave Allen]). But before joining, nobody outside SES knows anything about the restrictions placed on you after entering the SES. In fact all they have is a highly subjective and essentially misleading advert.

I'm glad that there is a reasonable amount of expertese within the marketting group, so maybe they could put their minds together to getting a really good picture of the SES out there (warts and all).

Alban

User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Mon May 22, 2006 2:23 am

I am interested in encouraging a greater transparency, and I've made those views clear already at the school. Saying some of your points would be more at home on an expose website is more a comment on the way you've phrased them than the issues themselves.

If you're not talking about advertising, and you're not talking about bringing this stuff up in group on the current schedule, where do you suggest this information is aimed? Are you talking media releases/articles? That's on the agenda.

ross nolan
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

getting a bit too critical ?

Postby ross nolan » Mon May 22, 2006 4:39 am

The Erasmus school and Parenting classes were quite openly advertised at the SOP classes .

It does no good to look for covering up of some matters that are in fact quite open -- the bringing up of children has taken place since time immemorial by 'unqualified' parents and others.
With the current primary school system heavily dominated by female teachers there is a well realized lack of make role models for young children which is a known "fault" in the present educational arrangements.

A friend who does reptile shows in many government and private schools, including Erasmus, made the observation that the children at Erasmus were noticeably MORE 'well behaved' and seemed to run around less than the typical school.

Surely biting etc behaviour would be less prevalent among tightly controlled children rather than more ?

Many people pay a lot of money to put their children in private schools in Australia because of the perception that state schools are run by teachers who conform to a certain type of political /social affiliation (often referred to in the recent past as "pinkos' meaning less than red (communist/socialist) but not exactly liberal .(but definitely public service )

Certainly labour party politics were more prominent in the past and some misguided experiments in teaching maths (cuisinaire for example) by leaving out rote learning of arithmetic tables have had repercussions later on and drawn criticism from secondary teachers . Similarly with 'relaxed' English expression.

Sunday schools for preschool and the very young in church environments seem to have been overlooked -- and how about religious indoctrination in Catholic schools in particular ?

Unless you support a strictly secular education then you can hardly single out the SES schools on the basis being given.

Richard Dawkins made a good point about having "Tory" or "Labour" schools for young Tories etc the same as we permit Catholic schools for young Catholics or young Jews, Hare Krishnas etc etc -- why doesn't it seem just as repugnant to have children labelled by their perents religion ?
Skeptic

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Mon May 22, 2006 6:44 am

Bella - I think you would agree that fact that you have tertiary qualifications in an appropriate area is more good luck than good management.

Bella wrote:-
or to threaten to withdraw love or support because of behaviour.


While the samples you gave just before this I totally agree with, with the above, where does 'time out' or 'turning your back and totally ignoring child' (works a treat when your 2 y.o. comes home from creche having learnt the "f" word from another child and expecting a juicy reaction); fit it? Technically, it's not a 'threat' to withdraw love, it's an action showing it.

And remember, as we've discussed before, not all SES people are as reasonable as you in balancing what is taught.

As to openness in advertising - haven't had a chance to read your discussion yet - but certainly the current ads obfuscate a heck of a lot what the SES is about. Read ab's experiences, even when questioned it was all 'we'll cover that later, pay up for another term".
Relatives with long-term involvement in the SES / SOP/ SoEP

User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Mon May 22, 2006 7:06 am

Yeah, ab's experience (and others that have been written about in the same vein) is pretty disappointing. NYC's (I think) story about being fobbed off with "you don't need to know that at this stage" was cringe-worthy as well.

I used time out pretty much exclusively, and I don't really see it as withdrawing love or support (or threatening to). I don't see ignoring a measure of swearing as that, either. I mean, you're not refusing to talk to the child in some petulant power play or telling them you're going to send them to the orphanage; you're just not reinforcing unacceptable behaviour. Glad you agree with the rest, though.

About the "good luck" rather than good management - maybe - but as I said, it's now a requirement that the people in charge of the kids' group on Saturdays have teaching qualifications. That's a step in the right direction, don't you reckon?

daska
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:29 pm
Location: UK

Re: getting a bit too critical ?

Postby daska » Mon May 22, 2006 8:17 am

ross nolan wrote:A friend who does reptile shows in many government and private schools, including Erasmus, made the observation that the children at Erasmus were noticeably MORE 'well behaved' and seemed to run around less than the typical school.

Surely biting etc behaviour would be less prevalent among tightly controlled children rather than more ?


Yes, it would... children are badly behaved where they feel most relaxed and secure. Hence children being fabulous when they go to their friends houses but little terrors at home. Far more worrying is when a perfectly behaved child turns into a monster when his/her parents are not around.

Another example of this would be the child who goes to visit an absent parent where they are perfectly behaved and then turning into the biting, hitting, kicking, spitting little monster just for the parent with residency. This bad behaviour is sometimes mistaken for being a desire to not to return to the parent with residency when alternatively the good behaviour can be indicative of not being fully relaxed with the absent parent (maybe feeling the need, having been left, to prove that they deserve to be loved) or the bad behaviour is the 'return from holiday' syndrome or just the relief of not having to put on a facade.

Alternatively, kids who appear happy and well behaved in all settings can be suppressing far more distressing emotions. Ironically, in this situation, it can be a relief to see a compulsively happy child getting angry or upset because it means that they are learning to express rather than bottle up or hide their emotions.

(N.B. 'can be' not 'are'! Each situation has to be evaluated individually)

Alban
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:23 am
Location: London

Postby Alban » Mon May 22, 2006 7:24 pm

bella wrote:I am interested in encouraging a greater transparency, and I've made those views clear already at the school. Saying some of your points would be more at home on an expose website is more a comment on the way you've phrased them than the issues themselves.


I wasn't writing an advert, I was bringing up an area that needed comunal awareness!

bella wrote:If you're not talking about advertising, and you're not talking about bringing this stuff up in group on the current schedule, where do you suggest this information is aimed? Are you talking media releases/articles? That's on the agenda.


Advertising is only a small part of marketting, although it tends to take up the largest percentage of the budget. There are lots of ways of getting your message across...How about a series of open days, where people are taught to pause...or clean the steps while concentrating on the working surfaces! They could listen to a performance of Mozart by the SES orchestra and then listen to the wise words of McLaren, Ouspensky, Gurdieff, and various indian gurus all mashed up together. Then they could wash it down with some tea and some of that nice wholesome homemade wholemeal bread that proved a greater barrier to radiation than a solid piece of lead (in our physics class).

So, while I don't expect you'll be taking up all of the above suggestions, you can see what I'm getting at...but I'm sure your advertising director knew that anyway.

(oh...and be sure to advertise the event nice and widely, so Ross will know where to go to join in!)

Alban

User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Mon May 22, 2006 9:44 pm

Yeah, cheers Alban.

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Mon May 22, 2006 10:29 pm

Bella - just on the "wicked" thing - it is very wrong to tell a child they are wicked, but do you agree it is a different matter to say that a behaviour is wicked?
Relatives with long-term involvement in the SES / SOP/ SoEP

User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Tue May 23, 2006 5:44 am

Pretty much. Condemn the behaviour, not the child.

sugarloaf
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:40 am

Postby sugarloaf » Tue May 23, 2006 7:58 am

bella wrote
If you're not talking about advertising, and you're not talking about bringing this stuff up in group on the current schedule, where do you suggest this information is aimed?

I reckon a good place to start is just to make sure all the SES and St James literature reflects the truth about the orgs. no need for an advertising or media blitz.
Take this from the current SES website - the introduction to philosophy classes for new students/members:
Philosophy - Introduction
Profound principles for a deeper experience of life

The ideas held by individuals have a profound influence on their lives and on the communities and nations in which they live, for better or for worse. True ideas based on natural law provide a sure foundation for a happy, useful and fulfilling life.

Being essentially practical and concerned with the essence of the great teachings of the world, this philosophy is for everyone regardless of education, occupation, age, culture and religion. It explores the meaning of wisdom, truth and consciousness, the real nature of the human being and what inhibits human development. Its study and practice naturally involve all three levels of human experience - physical, mental and emotional - and bring a new perspective to life: more open, natural, loving and unified. Greater efficiency in thought and action arises from greater clarity of mind coupled with the growing realisation that the stresses of modern life can be overcome through personal effort and a change in outlook.

Surely could do with a bit of a rewrite? where are the core aspects of the SES project described here? where is avaita, the shankarasharya, meditation.....? This misleading fudge runs through all SES, and more concerningly, SES childrens school literature. Why do they feel unable to reveal what they really are, and what they really believe?

Are you talking media releases/articles? That's on the agenda.

Can you tell us any more? Is this an SES media campaign based around the new governors proposed for the end of this term? Do you think there is any genuine desire to be more transparent - or is this just a change in SES media strategy towards fighting back against the 'hardened activists' and the negative publicity that naturally followed the inquiry report? questions.. questions ... questions!

User avatar
bella
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:52 am

Postby bella » Tue May 23, 2006 8:22 am

Sugarloaf, I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help. I'm Australian, so talking about an Aussie branch, not the SES proper.

Tom Grubb
Posts: 380
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:23 pm
Location: London

Postby Tom Grubb » Tue May 23, 2006 8:27 am

a different guest wrote:it is very wrong to tell a child they are wicked

Most kids I know would take it as a compliment.

mgormez
Posts: 501
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:33 pm
Location: Amsterdam
Contact:

Postby mgormez » Tue May 23, 2006 10:02 am

a different guest wrote:Somewhere here, there was a thread with sites and books listed *looks around vaguely, then shrugs*.


Lookıe here
http://www.whyaretheydead.net:/phpBB2/v ... m.php?f=21

Ps. AB - nıce read! Welcome.
Mike Gormez


Return to “The Australian and NZ schools”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests