Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Discussion of the SES' satellite schools in Australia and New Zealand.
Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Tootsie » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:28 am

I would like to thank nick for stimulating some discussion about the rights and wrongs of the SFSK. The point that I'm interested in is whether the Mavros were serving the truth or their own egos. While agreeing with Krishnamurti who at the time was to become the world teacher, dissolved his organization stating the following.

"I maintain that truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others "

The problem with Krishnamurti was after stating the above in 1929 he lived for another 60 years with a large organization formed around him. After his death unsavory details appeared in books showing him to have all the human frailties that the rest of us have.

As human beings each individual is lead by their thoughts, so in America some believe in the right to keep and bear arms while others think that after the Connecticut school massacre certain firearms should be banned. So its the same in the SFSK some think following Mrs Mavro means serving the Absolute while others think its all a big confidence trick to keep Mrs M in a position of power. It would be good if some of Mrs M supporters would come on this form and tell us how exactly they are serving the Absolute, or what do they mean by raising the communities consciousness by a state of sattva.

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Ella.M.C. » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:25 am

I have not checked in for a while and see there is much to read and re read here
with the latest posts, and I intend to in the next few days.

Welcome to you Nick and thank you for your contribution.

As you have freely stated your name as Nick Knape, can I ask you,
Are you a student of SFSK?
And have you attended Mrs Mavros school for very long?
I do not recognise your name, even though I have been left for many months now.

Tootsie,

Thank you for those words of Krishnamurti, they make a lot of sense to me.

On the 'point that interests you' .. re the Mavros serving the Truth or their own egos,
I will state again as I have in the past, as also others have.

I truly believe after knowing the Mavros for over 20 years and knowing all the situations
surrounding the Shankaracharya, and past students dealings with both HH and the
M's that they did (especially Mr M) start off as genuine truth seekers but lost their way to ambition.
The Shankacharaya also stated this that Michael was a genuine seeker who lost his way ..
Instead of being a manager he made himself the director.
This has been illustrated by him to students on more than one occasion with stories.
Michael was told not to start a school, that he was not ready ..but he did anyway.
It is a sad situation, none of us is perfect and I do feel sorry that this has happened to him.
Mrs M in my opinion definitely is very selfish, and self serving, even though she may not
think it .. as it is second nature to her now.
Possibly she is even delusional, if she truly believes the things she says, in contradiction to a Shankacharaya's words.

Leonie
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Leonie » Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:00 am

Well done Ella, and thanks.

Thanks also to MOTS, AT and Tootsie.

Really grateful to you all for responding to Nick.

It seems a shame that the SFSK can't seem to reform even though it sounds as though a lot of people are leaving. I did not know the Mavros but I know some of the material that MM obtained.

I found this quote which is about what happens when systems reach a point known as the 'chaos point' and how they seek to right themselves, which seems relevant:

'When a system in chaos is far from equilibrium, it tries to right itself by going backward to the old; ..... But an evolving system cannot return to the past. It must seek out new structures and systems, and quickly ascend to a new configuration - or else face rapid decline. Fortunately, according to the theory, small positive fluctuations in this sea of social chaos can jump the system to such a higher order.' From 'Birth 2012 and Beyond: Humanity's Great Shift to the Age of Conscious Evolution' by Barbara Marx Hubbard.

It is a shame that people who are willing to help organisations such as SFSK 'jump to a higher order' are forced out. And it sounds from this topic that because of this the SFSK is facing 'rapid decline'. Those left in organisations like SFSK may like to consider this perspective on how things work.

Happy New Year!

Leonie

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Tootsie » Thu Jan 03, 2013 10:04 am

Just a question about the SFSK, do they have the practice of remembering the group at certain times of day (10.00 am & 4.00 pm)? Also is this practice still observed in the Practical Philosophy School?

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Ella.M.C. » Thu Jan 03, 2013 8:51 pm

Yes Tootsie,

SFSK does, the times are 11.00 am & 4.00 pm.

Tootsie
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:37 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Tootsie » Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:23 am

Ella, the remembering the group at certain times reminded me of what happened to one of the School of Philosophy lady many years ago. She worked in a large office in the city and whenever it was time to remember the group in the morning she would retire to to the rest room for a few minutes. However on this day the rest room was full so she decided to go into the cleaners cupboard as she knew the cleaners only came at night. At the time she was in the small cleaners cupboard the office manager dropped a glass in his office and went looking for a brush and pan to clean up the mess. He opened the cleaners cupboard and got such a fright at seeing a lady standing there with her eyes closed that he let out an expletive. It was so load that everybody came running to see what happened. I never heard what her explanation to the office manager was but I did know she left the organization shortly after this occurred. This is a true story as I knew the lady concerned and not an urban myth, although it did spread around world and may have been altered.
Last edited by Tootsie on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dr.Alan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Dr.Alan » Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:55 am

Tootsie - In India generally no-one, who is part of a traditional spiritual path, would ever say that someone else's way is wrong. It is the results of any path that count - and who knows what works for who?. However, it is considered quite widely in India that Krishna Murti was a Self Realised soul, albeit he was an unconventional one. He generally did not accept disciples as he did not agree with the idea of Gurus. In some ways he was right - but this would apply only to someone who had made advanced progress in previous lives. Or if you do not accept reincarnation, then - someone who was born with an advanced acumen. In the words of a living spiritual leader in India "Only one who is in the light can lead others into the light, those who are in darkness can only lead others into darkness." This I have discovered is the main problem with all the SES type organisations. But because they believe they are in the light then they try to apply the things, which they read about in scriptures,to others without really having achieved or lived those things themselves. This is the main reason for the failure of the Christian church in the UK. However, it is because SES used the (Christian type) institutional approach to an ancient philosophy which was designed to work without such an approach, that all their difficulties have arisen. The one-size-fits-all approach of western education and SES type teaching methods are not appropriate for deeply spiritual matters. Each individual needs to travel differently from others on this path, although the goal is the same for all, the starting point may be different. Also the inner difficulties will not be the same from one person to another. This truth cannot be handled by SES and the like through their institutional approach. And for those tutors in SES who are "in the dark" - what chance have they got of knowing how to deal with the problems of others - when really they need lots of help themselves. I will pause here - as I expect some may wish to comment - or illuminate me on some aspects of what I have said so far.
SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

Ahamty2
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:03 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Ahamty2 » Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:10 am

Welcome to the forum Dr.Alan..
Also good to have someone from the early years like myself on the forum. You would have been in the SES when the Mavros were there and myself also. I was grateful to have the support of Dr Francis Roles at the Study Society in the 1980's before he passed away.
You have put it very well why the SES and people of the west get it wrong about what spirituality is all about. You put it simply and clearly. Those living in darkness themselves cannot know the Light if they have no experience of it themselves. Intellectual knowledge is just that, intellectual knowledge nothing to do with reason whatsoever, a deception of the ego.

Earlgrey
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Earlgrey » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Thanks to Dr. Alan for making an informed contribution to this forum. I agree with your general description of the state of play within organizations like School of Philosophy.

For someone like me, who is stuck in the School of Philosophy (Sydney), what advice can you give to assist in extracting myself from the organization. I have become painfully aware of the shortcomings of SOP and indeed my own shortcomings. It became clear to me that when I joined SOP that I had personal shortcomings that made my life unhappy and it seemed that SOP was going to somehow resolve these issues. You know, the little desires will get subsumed in the larger desire for truth and all will be well. There was a promise that these thorns would be plucked out as they say but I realized recently that indeed none of these thorns had been plucked out at all. The environment of SOP allowed me to pretend that I had resolved my personal issues and had moved on. When a major personal crisis occurred in my life I found that in fact I hadn't resolved anything and that the core personal difficulties, which laid unseen, came to the fore again.

And all this after many decades in School. I didn't sit there doing nothing, I took the stuff seriously. I practiced and practiced, and did all the crazy stuff (not necessarily in cupboards). Bible study, calligraphy, sounding etc at 5am. Doing that and all the rest suppressed my anxiety and guilt. Looking back on it now it seems crazy but somehow this brought peace but not really, I was kidding myself.

To be frank, I am anxious, but I don’t exactly know why. And let me tell you something, the mob in SOP do not like anxious people. Who does? This was very distressing for me. The so called tutors are unable to assist with my inner difficulties. They did offer "support", one said he was not interested in my difficulties and that I should seek help outside of the organization. I don’t really want to be too critical of the SOP organization, after all these problems are my own, they were not created by SOP. But I do have this horrid feeling that I have wasted a couple of decades and I need to do something to resolve these core issues.

Well it turns out that maybe I'm not really interested in the spiritual path, but I want to resolve my anxiety. After all that is what I wanted at the start, to resolve my anxieties. That's what I need. If there is such a thing as human development and if I am going to participate in it, I need to resolve my anxiety. Find out it's cause and start to respond in a different way. This will not happen at SOP.

Dr. Alan, for some reason I can’t leave SOP just yet. I’m nearly there, I have a feeling that if I left I would be giving up the access to stillness (whatever that means). I know it’s all bound up with my general anxiety and really I’m trying to deal with this by myself.

I think I'll stop there now, thanks.

Leonie
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:00 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Leonie » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:09 pm

Hi Earlgrey,

I was going to PM you but you seem to have disabled that function.

Hope you are OK. You may find other spiritual sources will help alongside SOP if you stay there - have you tried any others? Personally I found a great deal of help from Gangaji's teaching (website: http://www.gangaji.org) and Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee's books (he is a Sufi mystic). A good one is 'Love is a Fire' which is available free online here: http://www.goldensufi.org/pdf/LoveisaFire.pdf. (I just reread the introduction to this book, if you read that you will probably know if the book will be helpful for you or not.)

Otherwise I expect there are others here who have felt the need for other kinds of help with anxiety etc, who may be able to suggest something.

Best wishes, Leonie

Middle Way
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:46 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Middle Way » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:27 pm

Hello Earlgrey. You may recall from my previous posts that I work as a psychologist in Canberra. If it would be helpful to you, I would be more than happy to have a talk with you over the phone. If this might help, you could send me a PM.

Dr.Alan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Dr.Alan » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:38 pm

Earlgrey, please send me a PM as there may be a solution which you would like to take up.
SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

ManOnTheStreet
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby ManOnTheStreet » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:26 am

Earlgrey wrote:I have a feeling that if I left I would be giving up the access to stillness (whatever that means).


Stillness is not something that someone else can give you (or to which someone else can grant you access). It's part of the party line at SFSK that you somehow "leave the work" if you leave School - I strongly disagree with this. Inner Peace is something that can always be accessed by you, and you alone. If you needed to be somewhere or in some company for that to happen, it would be Outer Peace! I think as students we came to rely much too heavily on the "atmosphere" of School to procure our "inner peace" state of mind. We developed an almost Pavlovian response to the environment in which we found ourselves week in and week out. When you're on the outside, you learn to rely on yourself and some kind of inner peace seems to follow (at least this is my experience). You're sure of less things than you were in School, but there is a certain liberty to be found in "knowing that you don't know".

@Dr. Alan: Welcome, and thank you for your erudite posts. They are spot on.

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morrigan
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:06 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby morrigan » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:02 pm

But also in India is a common "hymn" which is Spiritual and Christian: "Khushi! Khushi Manao! Khushi Khushi Manao! Bolo, bolo maseh ha ke Jai! Jai! Jai!" Many people know that one - it's a longer one and a nice song.

ManOnTheStreet
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby ManOnTheStreet » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:38 pm

Perhaps you could translate the hymn for us?


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