Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Discussion of the SES' satellite schools in Australia and New Zealand.
Middle Way
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:46 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Middle Way » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:45 pm

Over to you Nick. If you are a student of SFSK, for how many years have you been a student? Will you answer the question this time?

Someone else
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 11:48 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Someone else » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:21 am

Clearly not

Middle Way
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:46 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Middle Way » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:26 am

It seems that way.

Gerasene Demon
Posts: 139
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:20 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Gerasene Demon » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:05 am

.
Last edited by Gerasene Demon on Thu May 30, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nick
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby nick » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:55 am

(b) is problematic, because the Mavros did not really tell him very much about the running of the School. They admitted this to us a few years back, saying that "he wouldn't understand what we do, because we've set up the School for "westerners"". So (b) is shaky. I would probably say that HH assumed that the School was set up for the genuine study of Advait-Vedanta, and that some students meditated, but no more.


I think Mrs Mavro made a valid point. The school is setup for westerners. Try telling people to worship the gods. It is guaranteed there will no longer be any school around. The school is meant to gradually bring you to a certain level if you allow this. Then you make your own choice. Not abuse the person who brought you to that point. One does not abuse his father if there is strict diciplines he is made to follow. Although it is painful one must do it for a better effect. It may take years and years. You may hate him intitially but later it may be worthwhile. In this case we are not talking about results in 20 yrs or so. There is a much bigger view of lifetimes. Not our egoistic life of 80-100 years. One must be strict.

(c) Does not follow from (b), even if we allow (b). The practices we were given in the School largely resemble those practised by "fourth way" adherents (Gurdjieff). They have very little to do with Vedanta and the Indian tradition of which HH is a part. So (c) is shaky. Even if (c) were true, how do you know the Mavros gave us everything that was given to them by HH?

I do not. Maybe we were given what we a capable of assimilating. You dont teach Physics to a year 2 student.

(d) Given the above, I don't think it's at all self-evident that HH knew about the practices we were given and provided authority.

HH has knownt he Mavros for many years. Surely he must have been informed of the practices. Surely the head tutors went to see HH before the great debacle post 2012. I think other factors have played a part in the departures of the head tutors. Areas such as power, money, jealousy, anger and greed that have not been spoken of much. Great traditions have been previously brough down like this. Head tutors of such integrity would NOT go for 20 years plus without doing the apppropriate research, going on trips to HH, asking questions etc. I do not believe it is that self-evident.

(e) There most certainly is a reason. The Mavros went to HH for a dual purpose: 1) To get as much information as they could from him for themselves, and 2) to give the appearance that they brought with them the authority of a holy man. This cemented their own power here at home. They did not allow anyone to go to HH without their express permission. In fact, visiting HH was vehemently discouraged by the Mavros. What were they trying to hide? So (e) is shaky as well.

Again, I am sure others visited. Did they not question etc. Are you saying for past 40 years only Mr and Mr Mavro have seen HH. That is absurd. Most of the head tutors are highly educated. Did they not question?

(f) See answers to (c) and (d). (f) is shaky.

F is flawed based on my above premises.

(g) The statement is by no means ridiculous, especially given the above points.

(h) This is not correct - there have been issues - she just isn't telling you about them. Mrs Mavro and the other people she took to India last time were given an extremely cold reception. This makes a lot of sense in light of the above.

She still goes to India, right? It is probably an issue that need to be resolved. You dont simply throw people out after 40 years of service etc. Why does not HH or his associates say anything to the school directly if there are such issues around?

(i) From (h) this is false - HH has not ignored the problem, and Mrs Mavro's relationship with him is at best very very strained right now. Why else do you think she's trying to jump ship to one of his other disciples?

HH has either ignored the problem or there is not problem and people have blown it out of proportion.
There has been no contact by HH directly to the school. This means either HH does not exist or there is no issue.

(j) Actually, a few of us have been to see HH since we left and those meetings confirmed what we knew. So (h) is demonstrably false.

You know what I will say to this.

Thus I think your logic is again flawed. Your premises are not established, and your conclusions do not follow from them.

Not yet.

nick
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby nick » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:55 am

Around 12 years in aggregate. I have taken a lot of time off and on.
Last edited by nick on Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:00 am, edited 3 times in total.

nick
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 3:48 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby nick » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:56 am

Gerasene Demon wrote:They come and they go but we do not forget that they have been in attendance.


GD.


GD, please write more. I do not understand you.

ManOnTheStreet
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:32 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby ManOnTheStreet » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:07 am

Hello again Nick - nice to see you're still around.

1.
nick wrote:I think Mrs Mavro made a valid point. The school is setup for westerners. Try telling people to worship the gods. It is guaranteed there will no longer be any school around. The school is meant to gradually bring you to a certain level if you allow this. Then you make your own choice. Not abuse the person who brought you to that point. One does not abuse his father if there is strict diciplines he is made to follow. Although it is painful one must do it for a better effect. It may take years and years. You may hate him intitially but later it may be worthwhile. In this case we are not talking about results in 20 yrs or so. There is a much bigger view of lifetimes. Not our egoistic life of 80-100 years. One must be strict.


A couple of things here:

(i) I think the notion of "westerners" and "easterners" is a bit hackneyed by now - the kind of multicultural melting pot that is Australia now largely puts paid to the idea that people can be accurately separated into distinct types like this notion suggests. Or do you mean to say that the SFSK is only meant for middle/upper class white people? Further to that, would you say that the couple of Indians and people of non-western backgrounds currently in the School are misplaced?

(ii) I know that you are only using "worshipping the gods" as an example, but think about it - if an idea is that strange, then surely that fact is cause for more transparency, not less? In any case, to what "point" do you think you have been brought exactly? Your argument only makes sense if the goal is clearly defined and the means to it are tested objectively and shown thereby to work. None of this has happened in the context of School. A torturer might well use the same argument to support torture - "it achieves a goal". The question is "what goal?" - it is not established that membership of the School and obedience to the "disciplines" does anything other than engender a rather unhealthy reverence for Mrs Mavro.

(iii) The question of "lives" and so on is entirely dependent on whether or not you subscribe to the theory of karma. In any case, do you really believe that Mrs Mavro knows your "future" in the way that you suggest here? To do so would be to make her practically superhuman, and I really don't think we have any way of confirming that hypothesis. There is nothing about anything she does that makes her anything but human.

nick wrote:I do not. Maybe we were given what we a capable of assimilating. You dont teach Physics to a year 2 student.


This is exactly the point you made in an earlier post. My reply is necessarily the same as the one I gave earlier: "Your analogy about teaching [Physics] to a kid in year 1 doesn't apply - these sources are not incomprehensible. All they require is that the reader speak English. The situation in the School is akin to the teacher of the year 1 student actively discouraging the student from even asking about [Physics]. Why on earth would anyone do this other than to feather their own nest. If Mrs Mavro knows more than her students she can always assume a superior position. What I found upon actually reading ["Physics"] was that Mrs Mavro really doesn't know that much at all. She is very good at appearing knowledgeable, but only because she refuses to answer rigorous questions."

2.
nick wrote:HH has knownt he Mavros for many years. Surely he must have been informed of the practices. Surely the head tutors went to see HH before the great debacle post 2012. I think other factors have played a part in the departures of the head tutors. Areas such as power, money, jealousy, anger and greed that have not been spoken of much. Great traditions have been previously brough down like this. Head tutors of such integrity would NOT go for 20 years plus without doing the apppropriate research, going on trips to HH, asking questions etc. I do not believe it is that self-evident.


(i) First of all, none of the head tutors went to visit HH until about 6 - 7 years ago. The fact is, everyone was discouraged from attending, so eventually no one asked because the retributive answer was sure to follow. Two tutors were eventually taken a few years ago and those tutors have now left the School. A key issue for them was the fact that there was a considerable discrepancy between what they heard from HH and what was eventually "translated" and given to the students at SFSK. "Messages to the School" of around 1-2 minute lengths magically became 12-13 page documents after they had gone through Mrs Mavro's hands. It's just not reasonable to say that nothing was added to those messages.

(ii) Actually, we've dealt quite conclusively with the issues of money and power etc. Again, I refer you to my earlier response to this point: "Everyone knows that tutors at the School don't receive financial remuneration for their work there. So those tutors could not possibly have been tutoring for money. As far as power is concerned, Mr and Mrs Mavro had all the power. This was always so. No one who spent more than a few terms in School was in any doubt about that. Moreover, those two were not about to give up that power, and so the idea that any tutor would take groups for the purpose of acquiring that power is ludicrous. The other thing is: if they wanted power, leaving the School was the worst possible way to go about acquiring it. Even if they were disgruntled, surely staying in the School still offered them a better chance at that power than leaving. As it stands now, none of them will ever possess the power that Mrs Mavro currently enjoys. Thus I think your argument is flawed - if they wanted power the last thing they should've done was leave the School."

(iii) As far as "appropriate research" and "asking questions" is concerned, I think you somewhat misunderstand the nature of the School, at least as it was around the time we left (and certainly before under Mr Mavro). Research and rigorous questing was actively discouraged in order that the Mavros maintain their monopoly on "knowledge". Anyone who spent any considerable time at the School could not but notice the stifled and passive atmosphere that pervaded the place. That doesn't come from free thinking, independent people. In my own case, it was precisely the act of research and rigorous questioning that led me to my decision to leave the School. The conditioning there is so strong that eventually people distrust reason itself, and that truly is a very sad state of affairs.

3.
nick wrote:Again, I am sure others visited. Did they not question etc. Are you saying for past 40 years only Mr and Mr Mavro have seen HH. That is absurd.


I agree - it is absurd, but it is also true. In fact - it is also true that pretty much everyone in School who ended up seeing HH has subsequently left (bar two people recently, but it's probably too early to tell in their case). Moreover, it was their trip to see HH which served as a major factor in that decision. I do not think this is a coincidence at all.

nick wrote:Most of the head tutors are highly educated. Did they not question?


Yes and yes. It is exactly my point that eventually, this questioning led to them deciding to leave the School. On the one hand you say that one shouldn't question the instructions given because they are for you "greater good" and so on; and on the other, you wonder why none of the tutors "questioned" anything. This makes your argument a little hard to follow sometimes. In any case, your presumptions are incorrect in both cases as I have shown above.

4.
nick wrote:She still goes to India, right? It is probably an issue that need to be resolved. You dont simply throw people out after 40 years of service etc. Why does not HH or his associates say anything to the school directly if there are such issues around?


Even if they wanted to, you would only hear what they had to say through Mrs Mavro - do you see the problem there? Also - this forum has served as a way to disseminate that information; however, you seem unreceptive when that information is presented. What makes you think Mrs Mavro will give you an honest version of what has been said about her by HH? The key thing to notice is that we have no interest in lying to you. No one here is trying to recruit you to another School, or to some other organisation or group or tradition. Mrs Mavro, on the other hand, has all the reasons in the world to lie to you and make everything about her relationship with HH look rosy. Clearly, it is not. What I am saying is that, if anything, we here represent a vastly more objective point of view than that which you are likely to be offered by Mrs Mavro. As a general rule, the truth of a situation is much more certainly discovered from objective sources. You have one here, in this forum.

nick wrote:HH has either ignored the problem or there is not problem and people have blown it out of proportion.
There has been no contact by HH directly to the school. This means either HH does not exist or there is no issue.


Again, as I said above, the only way you would hear of an attempt by HH to contact the School is through Mrs Mavro. Hence my points above apply here as well.

Secondly, it definitely does not follow that lack of perceived contact implies there is no issue. The two concepts are simply not related in that way. The point is this: If Mrs Mavro is so reluctant to have people go and visit HH, it is likely that she is not at all keen to foster any direct communication between him and the students for the same reason. She would not be able to control the flow of information in that case, and this is anathema to her - after all, she has built her power within the School precisely by controlling the flow of information. She is not going to give that up now - particularly when her position is so fragile.

Thus again I say "I think your logic is flawed. Your premises are not established, and your conclusions do not follow from them."

MOTS

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby woodgreen » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:12 pm

This thread got left behind due to the SFSK Devotee one, so I am returning to it, for this post.

Ella and others from SFSK have highlighted the fact that the Mavros discouraged/prevented students from visiting HH in India -something they later overcame after leaving the school.

The Mavros approach seems the same as McLarens - his Foundation site makes it very clear that only he was allowed to visit HH and pass anything on. The following link from the Foundation site sets it out in no uncertain terms, and seemingly claims support from HH because HH had an "agency" with McLaren ( presumably for the schools). The Foundation site needs to be read with a pinch of salt, and it seems to have been re-written and updated since I last looked at it. Contains lots of attempts to expalin the McLaren/Schools/HH/Adavaita Vedanta relationships. And the position of McLaren's successor. (No relationship with HH who he never met).
Oh that tangled web again. Anyway make what you can of all the explanations on the site, but the stance of McLaren and the Mavros was much the same it would seem.
http://www.maclarenfoundation.net/context3.htm

regards

woodgreen
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Ella.M.C. » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:16 am

Many thanks woodgreen for your post and this link.
I have only just quickly read it through but will go over it again
in more detail.

I found the question put to HH Shantanand Saraswati very strange,
"Is the main objective of a School of the Fourth Way to help its Leader to
become Self Realised"?
Shantanand seems to agree, presuming that his answer has not been 'doctored',
and part of the answer states..
"A leader must find this before he can pass it on to anyone else"
This comment in itself corresponds to Jagadguru Shankaracharya Swami Shri Swaroopananda
who said that only a Self Realised person can bring another to his level.

Also interesting was Shantanands constant referral to the school as Mr Maclarens School.

The paragraph which states,
"Some people in these schools are of the view that they have a direct
relationship with a fully realised man.
Quite simply they do not, and the schools do not.
How could an organisation, which is an insentient being, have a relationship with a holy man?
It simply does not make sense . etc ....."

In SFSK, we were repeatedly told that we had a direct connection with HH Shankaracharya Swami Shri
Swaroopananda ..through Mr Mavro. And that other schools may have direction from sources but we
through some grace .. were 'plugged into the electricity' (an analagy used by MM)
This was said so much it made you in awe of the fact, and possibly how 'special' it was
to have found yourself in such a holy place.
We were given a mantra from this holy man who gave authority to MM only and so through
Mr Mavro we were connected to HH.
So now in actual fact, we were given a mantra, the source most likely from a book of mantras)
MM did not have authority to give a mantra to us. HH stated when asked that he (MM)
did not ask for permission.
I still cannot understand why someone could outrightly deceive people who put their trust in him.

sydneykatieking
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:10 pm
Location: Texas USA

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby sydneykatieking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:50 am

Psychopaths are like that. They don't care who they hurt as long as they get what they want. And they never, ever, ever, feel any regret or remorse or contrition for the deceits by which they profit from unsuspecting, trusting souls who put their faith in them. They always feel they are justified in their actions because, from their point of view, the world is their playground and all the creatures in it are for their enjoyment and exploitation. And, in that way, they are not fully human, but parasitic feeders and takers.

Psychologists and social scientists gauge there are a lot of psychopaths in modern society and, because of their charisma, drive, hubris, self-confidence and the sheer force of their egos, often succeed in their chosen fields, be it Wall Street investing, politics, academia or, in our experience, the dubious, ethereal realm of the supernatural which, I think, is the biggest con of them all. A con because none of the so-called Teaching is verifiable, aside from how one feels. It's Religion and, therefore, protected by our freedom of religion ethical standards. People may believe whatever they bloody well chose, no matter how outrageous and unproven the belief. Consider the simple teachings of the humble carpenter from Nazareth and the claims that are made about his person and nature, none of which have ever been proven, but taken on faith. I think it's the same psychological dynamic that draws people to these sham-schools.

It's each new student, each new 'generation' of students that's keeping the frauds going. So, it's entirely within the power of thinking, reasoning citizens, the students, to close these fraudsters down by ceasing to participate or attend anymore. The shammers need us far more than we need them. And they know that, hence all the threats and fear-mongering that goes on when a thinking student chooses life over mindless submission.

The jails are full of psychopaths who, even for them, overstep themselves and break the laws of the country. So they don't go to jail for conning trusting souls and taking their 'donated' time and labor; they go to jail because it could be proven they stole a lot of money, cheated on their taxes or assaulted children or some provable crime. Crimes against philosophy are hard to prosecute. Philosophy and Religion exist in that grey-area social limbo of the Mind and Soul.

For the psychopaths that rule/ruled these sham-schools we must 'leave them to heaven,' borrowing from King Hamlet to his son, regarding unpunished crimes against humanity. If there is such a thing as karma, or sanskara, or the universal natural law of cause and effect, these blighters will get theirs in the end. And, frankly, I would not want to be in their shoes when their little chickies come home to roost.

The best defense against being duped by spiritual frauds, I found, was Reason and a healthy skepticism. Also, Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit is extremely beneficial for judging and assessing the claims of phoneys: "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," I find, are words to live by.

In good faith, cheers from America
Sydney SOP survivor 1969-1980, proud contributor to the expose, Secret Cult.

Krishna
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:04 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Krishna » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:48 am

Dear members , hi everyone , nice to share some of my views with all , met HIS HOLINESS in his ashram a few months ago and found it to be the most divine experiences of my life.
He invited other members from the school to come and take his blessings and clear any doubts the had .If any of you need any information of going to India please feel free to contact me and I will organise all your stay there ,Have a nice day , visit the website on His Holiness,www.paramahamsi.org , Face book page ,paramahamsi ganga ashram
church/religious organisation .
Krishna.

Dr.Alan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Dr.Alan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:22 am

< deleted >
Last edited by Dr.Alan on Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Ella.M.C. » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:57 am

Hello Krishna, and welcome to the Forums.

Just a point on your post on the other thread re some senior members of SFSK ..
I am absolutely positive that those people are not there with Mrs M for money.
I know them all well, being my own (past) group members, and one especially
was a close friend.

I have come to see through these forums and since leaving the institution known as school,
that people come to these places for varied reasons, not just necessarily seeking the truth.

These people you mentioned I believe are interested in truth, and even though
each and every one of them has seen (with their own eyes) things that are 'not right'
with school and Mrs M personally ..still choose for whatever reasons to ignore or
not question, but to blindly follow ..
But money is not in that equation.
I hope one day they wake from that dream.

Hello Dr.Alan,
While we wait for Krishna to answer, it might be possible that the website is written by others
whose first language is not English, and loosely worded.
One possible explanation may be that it means 500 million followers, as the Shankaracharya is head
of a religious order, as is the Pope the head to millions of Catholics.

Dr.Alan
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:15 pm
Location: UK

Re: Sydney School for Self Knowledge

Postby Dr.Alan » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:43 am

< deleted >
Last edited by Dr.Alan on Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES - London 1964-1974 left due to SES interference with private life.


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