SFSK Devotee

Discussion of the SES' satellite schools in Australia and New Zealand.
Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Ella.M.C. » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:02 am

actuallythere wrote:Hello enlightened,

You have indeed raised a really interesting topic, you wrote:

enlightened wrote:I posed a simple question:
Are the spiritual practices enough to deal with your "stuff", or does one need therapy as well


and previously

enlightened wrote:In the spiritual sense all this "stuff" is the result of 'karma", in psychology the "stuff" is deeply repressed issues that one cannot deal with on a conscious level. Do spiritual practices effectively deal with the "stuff", or should it be combined with therapy......................


As far as I see here therapy and spiritual practices are positioned as mutually exchangeable, that they can both deal with the same thing (please correct me if I have got that wrong).

Personally I can't comment from first hand experience because I haven't ever been involved with a spiritual group long enough say I have undertaken a significant level of spiritual practices. Nor have I been in therapy.

But I can envisage a scenario in which an individual faces that choice:

Sandra grew up in a family where she never felt loved for who she was; her father was a workaholic and therefore rather absent from her life, her glamorous mother had affairs and spent more time seeking the flattery of men than taking an interest in her children. Sandra's sister was more beautiful and her brother was a much higher achiever. She was given little guidance or warmth in the home, which felt like a sham. As a teenager, Sandra found something deeply compelling in the world of classic literature, it was an inspiration. Briefly, primarily for social reasons, she attended Bible study group but left after feeling it was shallow, and took a volunteer job at a charity shop that she thought would do more good. Approaching young adulthood, there was an overwhelming sense of emptiness about where she had come from, she was lost for a calling and relationships didn't work out. She felt worthless and secretly hated herself. She began to cry to herself at night, she overate and got into fits of anger. But she was wary of the option of therapy, she'd heard most therapists are messed up themselves - and even if she got a good one she expected to feel exposed and scrutinized, it might open a can of worms and make her worse; therapy sounded too intensely intimate, and that is not something she's comfortable with.

At this point, Sandra might find a gentle introduction to spiritual practices appealing. My hunch is that if she went into spiritual practices, she would soon feel loved, guided, aware of a direction, that her past didn't matter, that she was worth a lot, that she was special.

And if so, what has happened to Sandra here? Has she got closer to understanding the mysteries of the universe? Has she got closer to understanding what has made her who she is?

Personally, I wonder. Is there a risk that what Sandra thinks is spiritual attainment, is in fact purely a distraction from the personal problems that caused her to seek a new lifestyle in the first place?

How can Sandra know whether what she has is not a mirage of spirituality which is in fact a distraction from her personal problems, that would have been addressed square-on by therapy?

Can Sandra be sure those personal problems won't come back, 5 or 10 years into spiritual practice - all that anger, that insecurity, that personal desire to be loved and guided and to belong?

And what if there are other people around her undertaking spiritual practices who are morally corrupt (and it happens everywhere, most infamously of late in the Catholic Church). Will she be strong enough in herself to stand up to them? Will she be strong enough to protect others from them? Or will she turn a blind eye and therefore encourage them? And what if they, and by extension their spiritual practices, are criticized and ridiculed? Will she feel hurt that the source of her new and good feelings, the source of the love, care and guidance that she always wanted and deserved, was now being thrown in the gutter? Will that hurt cause her to leap to the defense? And if so, will Sandra have been on a spiritual path, or an emotional path?

So to go back to the start - therapy or spiritual practices for Sandra? My hunch is that she could probably try both, but I am not yet sure that spiritual practices would be enough to deal with what she could address in therapy.

In terms of experience, you Enlightened are in a better position to look back at the process than I am. So I'd be curious to know what you think about it, whether one can indeed use spiritual practice as an alternative to therapy, or what the difference is. So, over to you.

Kind regards,

AT


Enlightened,
Did you read this above post directed to you?

I actually found it very interesting, and pertinent, many thanks actuallythere!

While it may at first seem an exaggerated story, this I believe is how it is for many or
most students, in a percentage range from say 5% to 100%.

Even for one who believes wholeheartedly (rightly or wrongly) .. such as myself, that I was there
only for the answer to the meaning of life, this added aspect makes the school 'extra attractive'.
This element the school fosters, to make individuals feel wanted, cared for, loved ..and even special,
and nothing wrong with that of course .. but, it is tainted because of manipulation and subtle abuse.

This all also makes sense of my astonishment, that many senior students in SFSK
seem to turn a blind eye to, or not care or enquire as to the validity of their school principal
Mrs Mavro, in relation to the M's giving an impure mantra and no authority to initiate
(because he never asked ..)

Also enlightened, I hope I have not covered up the two excellent posts waiting for your reply
from MOTS and Someone else, with this long post.
So please answer them first ..

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:13 am

Sorry Ella Mc but I refuse to enter into your MRS M bashing...thats your work not mine.
Re Sandra: She defenitely needs to have pyschotherapy to sort herself out before she delves into spiritual work.
Combining both can work but it depends on how much work you have already done on yourself.My observation is that quite a lot of people that left the school appeared to have a lot of issues that seemed to conflict with spiritual work.There was one woman that was obviously anorexic and had probably come to the SFSK thinking it may provide a solution, but when the SFSK didnt provide the answers she was looking for she left.She would have been better going to an eating disorder clinic.

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Ella.M.C. » Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:28 am

Enlightened,
I cannot see anywhere in my post where I am 'Mrs M bashing' as you put it.
I merely commented that I was astonished that students did not seem to care or question
the very things that form the basis of the school.
That is hardly Mrs M bashing ..

What is so very frustrating about you is that you ignore and never answer any relevant questions put
to you, recent examples being the last post from MOTS and Someone else.

You also missed the point I was referring to in the story of 'Sandra', she was the exaggerated end ..
and I was trying to point out the more subtle ways of how we all might have a small
percentage of 'Sandra' in us.
Otherwise would we not all leave if we felt we had been deceived by the person we trusted most?
Or could it just be that person whom we trusted.. might be fulfilling other gaps in what we desire?

enlightened wrote:My observation is that quite a lot of people that left the school appeared to have a lot of issues that seemed to conflict with spiritual work.


This is rubbish .. spiritual work is every action, 24/7 ...
Not just doing your practises, tea service, cleaning, tutoring, and any other school service.
No one left school for such reasons, I have said so many times here now, the main reason why
most senior students left.

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:11 am

Ella MC:.......If you are so happy to have left SFSK, and you have found your guru....why do you bother with this forum???......I think we all know why you think the senior students left........The point is that you can keep harping on about this "mantrum" business till the cows come home but you and your tutor have no credibility.

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:35 am

I put it to you, 'enlightened', that it is none of your business why Ella.M.C. engages with this forum. She has her reasons as, no doubt, have you. You have criticised this forum in the past as being 'toxic'. Well in the words of Dr.Alan: 'we often project a dominant quality of our own character onto the world outside and believe that we see it there'.

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:14 am

I started this forum to defend SFSK.....and of course all the SFSK haters have joined in to "dump" all their "stuff".......yes Joanne and Dr Alan , very well observed it seems that quite a few people on this forum are projecting all thier darkness onto me.........................Ella MC has had a personal falling out with Mrs M, but instead of confronting Mrs M, shes using this forum to deposit her unresolved anger.

Jo-Anne Morgan
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:23 pm

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Jo-Anne Morgan » Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:25 am

yes Joanne and Dr Alan , very well observed it seems that quite a few people on this forum are projecting all thier darkness onto me


Ha ha ha, well misunderstood!!

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Ella.M.C. » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:00 pm

Ella MC has not had any 'personal' falling out with Mrs M.,
so no need to confront her for any reason.
I have explained most of my reasons for leaving to her.
Except of course one could ask her why she deceived us ..

Hate is a very strong word (you used in 'SFSK haters') and I doubt that true of any ex SFSK people.
I certainly do not hate anyone nor Mrs M for that matter, I am not angry either.

I just find it very hard to understand how the M's could lie and deceive in important spiritual
matters ..when we trusted them like parents.
In a way the forum could be like a grieving process ..talking through issues with others
helps heal.

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:34 am

Yes Ella Mc I can see how the forum can be used as a vehicle for ones grief....Im sorry but I just cant abide by what you say about this deceit business................Im sorry but I have no faith in the tutor that apparently "uncovered " this "information" and consequently divided the school. Just the other day I recalled one of his classes where he said the most bizarre comment:" HH and the wise sage, have often found themselves thinking about copulation...who would have thought"...............Im no prude but what is the purpose of this comment???

ManOnTheStreet
Posts: 137
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:32 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby ManOnTheStreet » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:03 am

While I can't speak to the purpose of this comment (or your purpose in remembering it), I can say that evidence for the proposition does exist in the Scriptures. It is said (in the Yoga-Vashistha or perhaps the Puranas I think) that the sage Vashistha once courted an Apsara (a celestial nymph) and created a universe for them in which to sport for ~1,000 cycles.

enlightened wrote:Im sorry but I have no faith in the tutor that apparently "uncovered " this "information" and consequently divided the school.


i) The tutor was no the only one to "uncover the information"; and

ii) Is it the division of the School that informs your "lack of faith"? Surely you realise that there's nothing inherently wrong in dividing the School. Only a person that held a priori that the School was necessary and good would hold to this view. Are you such a person? (I ask this inquisitively, not accusably).

MOTS

Ella.M.C.
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 6:12 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Ella.M.C. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:12 am

I have said this before .. but,
I really do understand you Enlightened, when you say that you just can't abide by
what I say about this deceit business.

When I first heard these 'stories' back in around 1993, told to my face by people
who I knew were not lying to me, and they had no reason to lie to me,
all I could think was that they must be mistaken, they had got it wrong somehow ..

But it bothered me enough to approach NM, and I now see her attacks on my enquiry were
her reactions to being questioned and possibly being found out.
When I was summoned to MM he was more collected, but was not convincing, definite guilt
there, which I saw as very strange, but still ended up accepting.

Then last year in India, when the questions were put to Guruji, (and in my heart of hearts
I knew what the answers would be), and his voice confirmed what I had been trying to
deny to myself over the years, it was still such a shock to hear, with many emotions flowing
through body and mind.

You cannot blame 'the tutor who uncovered this information' .. this information was there years
before, when a few others left.
As a group, the senior students that left felt it was our duty to let others know what we heard and
had verified, as we would want to be told if the situation was reversed.

No one has 'divided the school' .. if that has happened, it is the effect of a cause,
and that cause could well be the school itself.
I personally believe that the M's set out with good intentions and loved spiritual ideas/philosophies,
but along the way power and ego got in the way, just like happens to many a leader in politics etc.
And when you practise a lie for so long you end up believing it ..
and become deluded.

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:02 am

The thing is how do you know who is telling the truth??....A current student who has been translating HH messages for the M's for the past 8 years and regularly visits the house said he has seen the documents many times.There are many charlatans in India posing as sages, maybe HH is a dud and is deceiving everyone???

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby actuallythere » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:15 pm

enlightened wrote:Sorry Ella Mc but I refuse to enter into your MRS M bashing...thats your work not mine.
Re Sandra: She defenitely needs to have pyschotherapy to sort herself out before she delves into spiritual work.
Combining both can work but it depends on how much work you have already done on yourself.My observation is that quite a lot of people that left the school appeared to have a lot of issues that seemed to conflict with spiritual work.There was one woman that was obviously anorexic and had probably come to the SFSK thinking it may provide a solution, but when the SFSK didnt provide the answers she was looking for she left.She would have been better going to an eating disorder clinic.


Dear Enlightened,

You answered Ella by saying you don't want to enter into Mrs Mavro bashing - but Ella asked you to answer my post, and nowhere in it do I mention Mrs Mavro. You appear to have avoided responding to my post for some other reason, no? Rest assured, I've never heard of Mrs Mavro outside of this forum so I have never commented about her as I don't consider myself qualified to do so. I've noticed you have stood up for her as a friend, and in my view that loyalty of yours is noble.

My question to you was quite straightforward. You seemed to be opening up the possibility that spiritual work may not be sufficient to deal with what you call one's 'stuff', and that therapy might in some circumstances be more appropriate: my question was whether, in your personal experience, you see this to be true. Do you?

On a second point, unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I am), you appear to have said you take from the SFSK what you like, but omit things that don't work for you. Is that correct?

Kind regards,

AT

enlightened
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:38 am

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby enlightened » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:50 pm

Sorry AT, i didnt mean to evade your question.When I started at SFSK I was in therapy, ongoing, but I had done a lot of work on myseff and I got to the stage where I was ready to take it to the next level.I had always been interested in spiritual evolution and had delved into probably every new age modality you could think of.I have stopped therapy now because I got to a stage where I felt that Id dealt with my issues as best as I could.I am not limited to SFSK, and I am open to a wide range of personal growth tools. A couple of years ago I tried a therapy called PSH, which I thought was excellent and once a year I go to QLD and have a chakra balancing.But no I dont think that spiritual work alone is enough, it is not a holistic approach..I hope this answers your question.

Still Searching
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:39 pm

Re: SFSK Devotee

Postby Still Searching » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:45 pm

Not that I knew them personally but they still talk about the bad old days of the Mavros at Sydney SOP. They were sacked by MacLaren, which says something. As they say, "a leopard doesn't change its spots". The 'school' developed by MacLaren and Co was, and is not teaching or practising Advaita philosophy. It has some benefits, to a point, especially to new comers looking for some meaning to their life and maybe a bit of happiness. It was, and remains a 'school' which means authority on one side and submissives on the other, and never the twain shall meet.
There are contradictions all over the place. One can never become enlightened in the 'school' because it is a living lie. It can raise the consciousness of an individual, but a one size fits all system can never work because each individual is different and has different needs.
Anyone can regurgitate the 'material' but how many really understand it?


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