HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Discussion of cults generally - not specifically related to the SES or its related organisations.
Justice
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:13 pm

HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby Justice » Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:27 pm

I recently came across a useful website that describes how Cults like the School of Economic Science work.

The website is very straightforward and describes how they operate in a very simple and easy to understand way.

I think this could be particularly useful for parents and relatives of pupils at St. James who come to look at this bulletin board when they have concerns about St. James, and then try hard to convince themselves that there isn't anything to worry about after all.

The website is called 'How Cults Work' and can be viewed at:

http://www.howcultswork.com/

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Cults & sects

Postby stiltrubld » Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:50 am

Justice,

If SES is a 'cult' or a 'sect' (as Marco and Clara call it) what do you think its aim or mission is?

You have called yourself 'Justice' which presumably means that is what you are seeking? Do you mind me asking what justice would be for you?
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:35 pm

deleted
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

Justice
Posts: 223
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2006 11:13 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby Justice » Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:32 am

Hello stiltrubld.

I can confirm that I haven't changed my opinion on Mind Control Cults like the SES.

I also believe that people don't join cults, they are recruited. An interesting description of the process can be seen at:

http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/articles.html

Justice for me would be for all Mind Control Cults to be exposed for what they are.

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

SES

Postby stiltrubld » Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:00 am

Hello Justice,

The jury is still out in my mind about whether the SES is a 'cult', or has cult like tendencies.

Stiltrubld
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

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bonsai
Posts: 322
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 12:08 am
Location: London

Re: SES

Postby bonsai » Mon Oct 12, 2009 12:04 pm

stiltrubld wrote:The jury is still out in my mind about whether the SES is a 'cult', or has cult like tendencies.

I would like to see them show that they are not, which they could do through reforms, transparency and sincere, full acknowledgement and apology for the past, all of which could easily be made public through their website.


Hi stiltrubld

I would agree with you that the SES should not be considered a cult if it is capable or reforming where reform is required and if it is capable of making clear what it is an increasing the levels of transparency. Your own views on this subject are rather fresh having only left the SES recently and started to question what sort of organisation it is. However for some of us our concerns have been raised for some time.

The accusations that the SES is a cult have persisted for along time. They have had a huge amount of time to reform and make themselves trasparent. Since 1985 and the publication of the Secret Cult. Since 1994 and the death of LM. Since 2004 and the WATD forums. Since 2006 and the publication of the inquiry report. Since 2009 and Clara's book. How long do we give them before we conclude that the SES is a self interested and inward looking organisation that uses its members and institutionalises them? How long do we give them the benefit of the doubt to reform before we conclude that they don't understand what reform is needed and why and that the changes made are token efforts more aimed at appeasing criticism than real change?

I do not for one minute say that the SES hasn't changed, it has. However the rate of change has been insufficient from my perspective to indicate a profound understanding of what reforms are needed or that they are really taking responsibility for what they do and who they interact with.

For me it's very clear. They are a cult.

I hope that one day they might grasp the nettle and change but in the meantime they are a cult.

Bonsai

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:17 pm

Oh you’re fabulous Bonsai!

Good points.

I’ll get back to you.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Tue Oct 13, 2009 10:54 am

Well Bonsai, I have thought about what you said above, and before about assessment of all the 'material' and practices used in the SES, and really I couldn't have put it better myself, and particularly as you sum up here:

How long do we give them the benefit of the doubt to reform before we conclude that they don't understand what reform is needed and why and that the changes made are token efforts more aimed at appeasing criticism than real change?


I would like to clarify one thing you say above, which is that I have not only just begun to question things since I left, I have always questioned them.

Some of the problems, maybe even most of the problems, in SES seem to stem from an inability to accept that Leon Maclaren had some flaws, which even his most loyal friend Dorine van Oyen does admit on her website (MacLaren Foundation) I believe. My sadness over this, because for me empathy and compassion run both ways, is that if they do admit this I think they will find great relief in it and it may open their hearts to admit to the full extent of the problems of the past and deal more compassionately with it.

There is a great deal of emphasis on ‘service’ in SES (what they call ‘second line duty’ – not a term I would choose), and quite clearly in the past this also got out of hand. However, in my time things have got a lot more sensible. I don’t personally have a problem with what I think of as ‘mucking in’ if everyone else does and have done my fair share of things when asked (just about anyway!). Also, I was always prepared to 'serve' in economics where my interest lies. I did recently receive further clarification about the question which originally led me to contribute to this forum in January. Since it seems that this will not be put publicly on the SES website (in any hurry at least) which I had hoped, it would only be fair to say what that was. It may not mean much to those of you here but it makes a big difference to me since it means that there is a shift in attitude, IF this is now put forward generally in the SES. Basically the issue was that the idea that I have gathered and been told is the way the SES views gender in terms of leadership was in general terms that 'men lead, women support', I have now been presented with an alternative that what is required of a leader is to be 'reasonable, compassionate and steady', leaving gender out of it. It may not seem much to many of you guys here but in my understanding and experience in the SES, having been through trying to influence attitudes towards gender for many years (including the dress code – and all that it implied), it is a step forward. The SES is not going anywhere, new students will join, so even this apparently small shift may make a difference to new students. And compassion is certainly what is required to deal with the past, maybe there will be some fresh efforts – I hope so.

My own pursuit of gender 'equality of status' may also seem ‘narrow’ to many of you. And since I have discovered the extent of the problems in the past it has become apparent just how many issues there are about the SES. So, in spite of all that I have said here (which may appear to be in defence of SES to some of you), I agree wholeheartedly with Bonsai as well. He is right it is too close for me to really be able to make a proper judgement.

Stiltrubld
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:46 pm

deleted
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

carlynnm8
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:30 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby carlynnm8 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:34 am

Hi Stiltrubld

Would you share what made you change your mind about SES? Im sure its of interest to many here.
><strong>Joanna Eberhart</strong>: If I am wrong, I'm insane... but if I'm right, it's even worse than if I was wrong. >more famous quotes<Stepford Wives

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:32 pm

Dear Carlynnm8,

Thank you for asking that question. I have been thinking about that. The short answer is that I haven’t really changed my mind, I just hadn’t decided yet, and now I have.

There is a long answer, I’ve just written it all down, but it comes to nearly 2000 words! It’s not that simple to answer that question thoroughly and sincerely, so it has taken me back over quite a lot of ground, especially of what happened this year, but if you are interested I will post it below. Let me know!

By the way thanks too for your great quote from Stepford Wives – one of my favourites and I have pinched it and used it in one of my posts I think!

When were you in SES? I didn’t engage when you first posted on this board as I was trying to keep a low profile, but I have been grateful for your insights.

Stiltrubld
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

carlynnm8
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:30 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby carlynnm8 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:20 pm

Hi Stltrubld

Yes indeed I would love to (as Im sure others would too) how you finally came to your understanding of whether or not SEs is in fact a cult. I too, was very unsure for a long time but from early last year (and possibly longer) I began to question some (and eventually all) of which the SOP was teaching. When I dropped the idea that any questions/doubts I had was simply the ego fighting against the truth, then things became quite clear for me. I also started to notice and observe others around me and how accepting they were of anything that was said. I found it more and more difficult to believe that these practices and ideas were rational. I was also concerned by some behaviours - I just stopped blatantly believing what they were selling me, and for that couple of minutes some rational thinking must have took place. I just saw a roomful of people who wanted to believe in a better world - but were simply being fooled into this cultish and false way of life. I dont blame our naivity - we all want to believe in a better world, but I do blame the SES who are taking advantage by being covert in their teachings. I left in the Spring of this year after realising what they are really about. I too, was very disappointed to find out the real truth and felt very silly about being so naive, but it has been an experience. I did learn some practices, that if nothing else, do stop circling thoughts - and the exercise is quite relaxing. Does anyone still use the exercise or meditate after leaving the school? I agree with you that the school does appear to tick all the cult/sect boxes but I am very interested in your findings. Yeah, my signature says exactly how I felt when I realised things may not be what they seemed.
><strong>Joanna Eberhart</strong>: If I am wrong, I'm insane... but if I'm right, it's even worse than if I was wrong. >more famous quotes<Stepford Wives

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:27 pm

Ahhhh - the warm glow! Bit like Ready brek! So true, and the practices are helpful, as far as they go. I can relate to everything you say. There is good stuff but there is also an agenda, that's the problem. For me and for a lot of people the understanding of the 'circular thoughts' and what was called the 'discursive' mind as distinct from the 'intellect' or 'bhuddhi' which led to an experience of 'stilling' the mind, and connection with the senses in a more real way and with everything else too if you actually make the effort, was very rewarding or satisfying, again many ways to describe it.

I think those that got meditation underway do continue with it whatever their circumstances. I was never very good at getting it into my routine, but did find the benefits when I did it. I think it is as easy or difficult as anything else one decides to do, like dieting! If they really want to do it people do find the time and will to just get on with it, if it works for them, providing what they value, like for me it was stillness and a way through blocks.

All this reminds me of a beautiful description of connection with nature by an environmentalist John Muir (Founder of the Sierra Club, 1892):

“We are now in the mountains, and they are now in us, making every nerve quiet, filling every pore and cell of us. Our flesh-and-bone tabernacle seems transparent as glass to the beauty around us, as if truly an inseparable part of it, thrilling with the air and trees, streams and rocks, in the waves of the sun – a part of all Nature, neither old nor young, sick nor well, but immortal.”

No sanskrit required, or 'Vedic Teaching' or membership of a 'Brahmin' class, or any other kind of teaching/system, just connection, plain and simple.

I will post my further musings tomorrow, when I have finalised it all.

Thanks and best wishes, stiltrubld
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

stiltrubld
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:26 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby stiltrubld » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:25 pm

Dear Carlynnm8,

You wrote:

Would you share what made you change your mind about SES?


I have mentioned before that it has been interesting observing the ‘material’, practices and set up in the SES over the time I was there (1990-2009 London). As many people have said here in so many different ways, the things affect you in a ‘drip, drip, drip’ effect, or sometimes wash over you, or you don’t accept it but don’t reject it either (as instructed in fact!), or you keep giving the benefit of the doubt over and over again when something does not seem quite right. Also I had written to the leaders about the dress code over many years and felt that once this was changed (which did happen in 2006) the rest may follow, by which I mean I hoped the attitudes and ideas about women would change. There are things I have found useful in philosophy and economics so I would not describe all of it as ‘culty’.

For me the main ‘culty’ stuff concerns gender issues, and other Hindu fundamentalist ideas about caste for example, but there is also other philosophy or spiritual development ‘material’ and the effect of the Gurdjieff ideas and practices (along with others) on people. Also worth considering is how much time and effort goes back into the organisation in a circular fashion, so it does end up to an extent like a club, for the benefit of its own members, some more than others.

[Rest of post deleted]

Stiltrubld
Last edited by stiltrubld on Thu May 24, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
SES: 1990 - 2009 London (Female)

carlynnm8
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:30 pm

Re: HOW CULTS LIKE THE SES WORK!

Postby carlynnm8 » Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:46 pm

Hi Stiltrubld

Well done getting all this down on paper. Your points and observations are ones that I have been concerned about too. I really dont think SES has any intentions of changing their ideas/practices at all and I think you are right when you say that some of these may be illegal in our country. The gender issues will never be satisfactorily resolved. It appears to me that these male leaders of the school have real issues with women - oops I mean ladies!! A throwback from the old Inquisition eh? I met DL once and wasn't impressed by the man's arrogance and superiority although many seniors were bustling about like excited hens as if the Prime Minister was visiting - it was bizarre. No-one would put up with all this stuff outside of the school and Im sure the only reason we put up with it while attending the school is because of the brainwashing. I cant believe the amount of tosh I listened to hour after hour, week after week, whilst wondering what was wrong with me because I seemed to be the only one shocked by what I was hearing, but still I sat there. I think it has something to do with not wanting to be the odd one out who doesn't agree with what's being said and done when everyone else seems agreeable - not wanting to "cause trouble" through my apparent ignorance. Maybe that's the effect the practices are specifically designed to create. Maybe this is the result of the clever use of human psychology and the subtle brainwashing that is drip fed to members. Maybe the classes, study days and residentials are all designed to bring about these results. Any time something was brought up that questioned the practices it was quickly fobbed off with some stupid "philosophical" answer or worse still just ignored. They are very fortunate that those who have suffered psychological damage due to these practices and behaviours have not sued them and brought about a very public investigation into what they are about. Another thing they were doing before I left was making all the males tutors and the females were assistant tutors - even in classes of 4. I am truly puzzled why I put up with it - that's why Im so interested in the process of their type of brainwashing. Thank you for such an honest and informative post. I have rambled on a bit - but I understand when you say you were trying to help new recruits (!), yes I believe people need to know exactly what they are getting into - ie this well covered up excuse for philosophy. There never will be transparency in the SES, there simply couldn't be.
><strong>Joanna Eberhart</strong>: If I am wrong, I'm insane... but if I'm right, it's even worse than if I was wrong. >more famous quotes<Stepford Wives


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