Attending the adult schools

Discussion of the SES's satellite organisations in the USA.
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Attending the adult schools

Postby a different guest » Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:31 am

I read from NYC's post that her first experience of the SES/SOP/SPP was as an adult - so perhaps this could do with a new thread so as not to confuse with people who were sent to SES schools as a child.

NYC I would love to hear more of your experience. You say you are still enrolled - will you be dropping out or continuing? What do your classmates feel about the course.

Are there any others here who have experiences of the SES only as an adult?

NYC
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Postby NYC » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:26 am

You say you are still enrolled - will you be dropping out or continuing?


That ENTIRELY depends on what the SoPP leadership does, in their interactions with me and also in response to the allegations on this board and the in-school inquiry at St James.

What do your classmates feel about the course.


I?d guess about half the people from Part 1 re-registered for part 2 ? I think you will be hearing more from them as people find the board & register to post. The dominant reaction I hear is that they are sick at heart about the abuses in London, and just really, really disappointed ? I think there is sexism and elitism in the NY adult school, but it is subtle and not so violent.

I understand that the American teachers recently updated the teacher guides used in Part 1, (the students are given a one-page handout, like a note summary, with the quotes that were read in class that day, and the teachers have a lesson plan as well ? the idea is that you can drop in to a class any night of the week and the same material will be covered.) I noticed that British spellings are still used in the handouts for Part 2, ?practise? instead of ?practice? etc, but the main thing I noticed was that in Part 1, qualities like Wisdom were sometimes personified as female ? ?Sophia,? represented Wisdom. I can?t find my notes from Part 1 but I definitely recall that the women in the class responded to that characterization ? it was such a mental relief to have intellect portrayed as feminine. It was a Western writer, don?t recall what period.

The tenor of the handouts in Part 2 is very different - not as inspiring. The thing is, consciouness (which is basically what we are studying ) is not male or female...so using exclusively masculine pronouns does not accurately represent it.

So far, the teachers are pretty good about seeking genuine discussion of the ideas (some a little more than others, but that's always the way.) Several tutors in Part 1 encouraged people who were just giving what they thought was the "right" answer to dig a little more, to find out what the student really thinks, not just spout what they think the teacher wants to hear.

I would reccommend Part 1 to anyone who was 1) not mentally/emotionally vulnerable--I don't trust this org with people who are in a weak position, like children or the spiritually desparate, and 2) interested in studying consciousness. You have to watch out for the b*s* but that's so with almost every religious/spiritual/philosophical org.

NYC
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tutor reaction in new york

Postby NYC » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:16 am

I am an adult student in the early portions of the School of Practical Philosophy in New York. After Googling the founder?s name, I became aware of this website as well as other websites representing Maclaren as an egomanic and cult leader. I brought two of the posts on this site ? Clara?s initial post on ?St james girl?s school ? remembered? and T. S. post ?Just discovered this! From Ex-pupil of Girls? School? to the evening class I most regularly attend, and showed them to the instructor. He seemed genuinely surprised, concerned, and said he would raise it with his tutor. He asked if there had been any allegations of abuse at Abraham Lincoln School, and seemed relieved that I didn?t know of any.

The following week, it was obvious from his demeanor in class that these abuse allegations were no longer a concern for him; he offered at the end of the class to speak with me the following week during the class break. I asked him if he had read the hard copies I gave him, and he said he had ?looked? at them. He also said that he had personally met Maclaren, and that he was a ?a realized being.? I wish I had thought to ask him at the time if Maclaren was a realized being ALL the time, or sporadically, or what.

I really couldn?t imagine what HIS tutor could have said to so thoroughly discount Clara and T.S.? posts, or the many other (very consistent) posts on this website. But the following week I came to class, and at the break he shooed the other students out of the room, sat down with me, and repeated, I imagine, what his tutor had told him.
1) The UK has a government body which accredits independent schools, and St James and St Vedast were accredited and have had no problems with this body.
2) Anyone can post anything they want on the Internet.
3) When something is written down it ?takes a life of it?s own? ? ie, seems believable.
4) This is old stuff, going 15 years back, and
5) All institutions have some individuals who fail to live up to the institution?s standards ? he mentioned the Catholic church, and
6) It doesn?t concern me. I should just pay attention to what I encounter here in New York and how the teachings and practices affect me.

Although I was (and am) really disheartened at his shift in attitude, it wasn?t a big surprise, especially the last bit, ?It doesn?t concern you.? I recall reading some variation of that sentiment repeatedly on this website, with the unspoken portion following ?That doesn?t concern you? (if it inconveniences someone higher in the School hierarchy than yourself!)

A deeply hypocritical and shocking example of this shut-down is Coralie?s post on pg 2 of ?St James School for Girl?s ? remembered? where she writes

I think I was seven when my Dad's affair with HH started. It carried on until after I was married and she died...I don't know whose idea it was for her to come to our classroom and teach us the ten commandments, however that is what she did. Obviously, I was not impressed. I didn't say anything while she was teaching, however, she felt the need to take me out of the class and into a little room and procede to tell me that she was better for my Dad and that they loved each other?I
tried to get quite a few people to talk to me about my situation, I always received the same response, "it has nothing to do with you and doesn't affect you". I begged to differ and still do. My Dad spent Wednesday and Sunday nights at her place and alternated Christmas and New Year with her and us. If he had stayed with her and we needed transport to School he collected us in her car. I saw her every day.

I felt like I was screaming really loudly, but that no one could hear me.


This story still leaves me really speechless. How an organization with a stated interest in ethics can justify any part of it ? the level of dishonesty, hypocrisy, and callousness ? just drops my jaw.

The thing is that ?It doesn?t concern you? is contradicted by the advaita Vedanta philosophy, which I interpret as arguing that ALL suffering concerns me, since I am part of/connected to all.

NYC

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Re: tutor reaction in new york

Postby Goblinboy » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:01 am

NYC wrote:I1) The UK has a government body which accredits independent schools, and St James and St Vedast were accredited and have had no problems with this body.
2) Anyone can post anything they want on the Internet.
3) When something is written down it ?takes a life of it?s own? ? ie, seems believable.
4) This is old stuff, going 15 years back, and
5) All institutions have some individuals who fail to live up to the institution?s standards ? he mentioned the Catholic church, and
6) It doesn?t concern me. I should just pay attention to what I encounter here in New York and how the teachings and practices affect me.
NYC


NYC - this response is classic SES cult-speak. I think your tutor's response is clearly cause for alarm - not just because of the arguments are clearly specious, but because it illustrates that the cult hasn't been able to deal with criticism in any more intelligent or effective way in the past 20 years.

And it does concern you. Can't believe how patronising your tutor is with the sixth point. You are participating in the same organisation. All of the SES schools use the same core curriculum materials. All push the same message. All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing.

Be assured that you will be closely monitored by the school for asking such questions.

grimep
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Postby grimep » Thu Mar 31, 2005 6:47 am

NYC, thanks for an interesting post.

Taking your tutor's points:
1. Accreditation would have had no way of finding or dealing with the the shocking conduct of adults within the school. It relies on irregular inspections that simply spot-check curriculum and lessons.
2. Yes, but so what? Is your tutor trying to imply that people posting their memories of schooldays and life within SES families are a particular type of internet fantasist? Well, make your own mind up as to whether the accounts on here are believable or not. The thought that the SES is trying to pretend nothing happened and people who have suffered are a pack of liars makes me angry and will motivate people to strive for truth to come out.
3. What utter nonsense. You could apply this tenet to the nonsensical faux-Hindu mumbo jumbo you are going to be persuaded to believe as your time with the SES continues, simply because it is written down.
4. 15 years is a very very short time, a blink of an eye; this sort of argument could only fool a young person, and indicates your tutor's immaturity and lack of wisdom. By using such a clearly false argument your tutor has shown his/her true colours.
5. So is he admitting there is truth in the allegations now?! An organisation IS the individuals in it.
6. Well to me that's the most valid point, but if I was a member of a quasi-religious organisation I'd want to know everything about it's history.

Well it's comforting to know that after this incredibly long long time since the way-back-when 1980s when people still thought the moon was made of cheese, the SES's reality-distortion field is still working in full effect.

May I ask, did you challenge your tutor on the points which are easy to refute? The stuff about things which when written down take a life of their own for example? Did you point out that during "Group" stuff is spoken by a tutor and therefore becomes believable and takes a life of its own?

It seems to me that new recruits do little in the way of challenging pronouncements made by those in positions of authority within the SES; those who disagree simply leave, while difficult questions are met by side-stepping issues or offering bogus explanations. I think it's a shame that there aren't more people like yourself making use of this board- there could be a seperate folder for adults with no previous experience of SES who are currently in the Philosophy groups. If I was attending one, I'd want to make notes of everything that was said by tutors and those in authority; things that are blindly accepted when spoken by someone in a position of authority may make much less sense when read back in one's own time.

I found a copy of Secret Cult
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASI ... 56-0987844
at the weekend and would recommend it to anyone wanting to know more about what the SES is.

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Postby Alban » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:31 pm

So, nothing's changed then, despite protestations to the contrary.

NYC,

Great post, and well done for having the courage to confront your tutor.

I trust that having seen the SES in action you will ask for your money back and go spend it elsewhere.

The world is full of sheep, there's no need for any more

BAAAAAA!

sugarloaf
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Postby sugarloaf » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:40 pm

NYC,

A very revealing post.

Don?t stop asking questions!

If only more people were prepared to do that when I was at school, perhaps the many children there at the time wouldn?t have had to endure such a terrible and abusive ?schooling?.

T.S
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Postby T.S » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:18 pm

Dear NYC,
Thanks for your thoughtful post and your actions. I feel touched, as well as strange, that an experience I couldnt even talk to my partner about a year ago is in the hands of someone I haven't met in New York.
I could be angry - and I'm glad I haven't gone there - by your tutors reaction- especially considering there are some other memories which I simply find too awful and humiliating to recall. Not being believed has been a huge fear of mine - something so intense and formative being taken out of my hands..
We were often told that things which had happened had not happened - in this world of unquestioned truth, reality was constantly shifting. Many people believed our rewritten history. I didnt, but spent years as a child thinking I had done things but couldn't remember having done them.
Well, I won't even go the way of trying to pursuade people like your tutor to believe me, but what strikes me is the shocking lack of empathy in his response.
If he wants to believe it's a lie then fine- everything could be- especially when you think you hold the keystone to Truth. Then why the appaling comments on how many years ago and how it doesnt concern him.
This reaction is heartless and appears defensive.
As many people have stated, an organisation that has not admiited, felt remorse for, or made amends with the people it abused in its past, cannot consider itself to be morally sound.
I have a degree in Philsophy- a need to really analyse, think and debate, after years of not being allowed to. I would love to discuss the ethically lazy reaction of your tutor- simply as one human to another. Isn't this the prime ethical tenet- we are all responsible for each other- for humanity?
Thanks again, NYC
T.S

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Postby a different guest » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:17 am

NYC - thanks for that post. It is most definitely an eye-opener. Aside from the comments the others have made one other thing it shows is how the hierarchy is still very much at work - your tutor showing at least SOME concern until he learnt "better" after speaking to HIS (higher up) tutor.

NYC did you see some of the posts in one of the schools threads about how the kids were taught that the people in Ethipia were starving because they had been greedy in previous lives? I'm interested if major disasters like the Boxing Day tsunami were ever discussed in your class. If so was there a "justification" for the over 200,000 dead?

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Postby Free Thinker » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:26 am

Hi NYC,

Thank you for your attempt to talk with the NYC staff about this issue. I'm sorry that you didn't get an honest response from your tutor - but thems the breaks with institutions like the SoPP.

Everyone else,

As I'm sure most of you know, I grew up in the NYC school and could have predicted quite a few of those responses. Although I don't know the name of the tutor NYC spoke with about this, I'm sure I know him personally quite well. I'm not at all surprised at the responses although I'm certainly saddened to have another affirmation of this attitude. You have all pretty well covered why his responses are so wrong. Cults are so frustrating because I would happily say that I had many friends in the SoPP, and that I respected and admired or thought nice many people who were there. But how can you say that someone is very nice who comes back with this sort of zombie-response? You can't except to believe that they are really nice but have been brainwashed. So frustrating!

FT

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Deception

Postby Matthew » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:14 pm

Here's another quote from the Dialogue Ireland site:-
SCHOOL OF PHILOSOPHY AND ECONOMIC SCIENCE: The public face of this movement are its courses in Practical Philosophy advertised in national newspapers. The ads do not state that the philosophy in question is Vedanta, and that what one is being invited to embrace is in reality not academic learning but initiation into a tightly-knit spiritual group and a form of meditation which uses the name of the Hindu god Ram as its mantra.

Matthew
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Postby Matthew » Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:57 pm

And this one from www.skepticfiles.org
Practical Philosophy Foundation (US)/ School of Economic Science (UK)

Known in Britain as the School of Economic Science (SES), the
London-based organisation was in 1984 the subject of Secret Cult,
a book-length expos? by two Evening Standard journalists.
They accused SES of deceptive recruiting, causing broken marriages
and having an adverse effect on members' health. They also claimed
that the four independent schools run by the School (where Sanskrit
is a compulsory subject from the age of four) kept parents in the
dark about the school's Eastern-influenced curriculum. Two of the
schools were closed down after the publicity, but two still operate.

SES advertises on the London Underground, offering evening courses
in 'philosophy' and 'economics'. SES was formed in the 1930s by a
Glaswegian called Andrew MacLaren, who, after leaving the Labour
Party, wanted a forum for his breed of non-welfare socialism. It
was his son, Leon, who introduced Eastern thought and physical
asceticism to the movement. In this he was influenced heavily by
George Ivanovich Gurdjieff, who one investigator has described as
a 'Greek-Armenian mystic, carpet dealer, gold prospector,
typewriter mechanic, dancing master, guru and some say con-man'.

Gurdjieff believed that a combination of self-deprivation, manual
tasks and prescribed chanting could redeem a man from flabby
corruption. Mozart,Shakespeare and traditional gender roles were
also deemed central to the school's philosophy. Critics of SES
point to the fact that it uses advertising and initial lectures
that make no reference to the movement's Gurdjieffian beliefs.

The movement's property portfolio includes an Oxfordshire estate,
a 'gigantic mansion' in Hampstead, Preston Brinscall Hall in
Manchester, two adjacent town houses in Kensington, and at one
point one of the Virgin Islands (which has now been sold to
Richard Branson).

NYC
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Postby NYC » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:51 am

Hello all,

?May I ask, did you challenge your tutor on the points which are easy to refute??

I did try to respond to the tutor's points, but I didn't get very far. I'm surprised that there doesn't seem to be a very extensive tutor-training program in place, because they are Damn Good at shuting down opposition. I really did try to counter-argue, but he was a wall.

I had decided in advance to take the tack of letting him say his piece first, (especially since I really couldn't imagine what defense the org would have.) I tried to let him express all the reasons it didn?t matter, thinking that then I would refute them. But when I started challenging he just got sorta mad and said that obviously I believed the website and so we didn?t really have anything more to say to each other. He switched to ?If you don?t like it here of course you can always leave,? which I let distract me from closing down his points.

Grimep wrote
Well it's comforting to know that after this incredibly long long time since the way-back-when 1980s when people still thought the moon was made of cheese, the SES's reality-distortion field is still working in full effect.


Grimep, you crack me up.

See, I think the basic problem is that this tutor did not read Clara's or TS's story with one tenth the attention he reads a Ridyard Kipling poem to us in class. If he had, if he had just ABSORBED that a teacher at St James punished pubescent girls by forcing them to take off their clothing, I think he would have to see that a school which tolerates such behavior has serious, serious problems. But he didn't really read ANY of the posts...before accepting his tutor?s judgment that there is nothing to be worried about.


?It seems to me that new recruits do little in the way of challenging pronouncements made by those in positions of authority within the SES; those who disagree simply leave?

EXACTLY. So the org is left with a bunch of ?like minds.?

There?s a Doonesbury cartoon I love. The Hunter S. Thompson character has taken too much acid, and he?s at a book-signing, and all the people have turned into animals. In the final panel a man with a large sheep?s head comes up applauding and says ?BLEAT! That was just BLEAT!?

I?m thinking to spend a bit of time (and money) among some sheep?instead of ?simply leaving.? A friend of mine used to say (re Catholic church ? she was a lesbian feminist) ?Don?t quit the church, make them throw you out!?

Would feel weird about paying the $175 except that what they charge is such a drop in the bucket compared to what the School must pay in property tax & operating costs. The School is NOT getting rich off me ? if anything, the preschoolers whose families pay $23,000 tuition are subsidizing ME.

I found it ironic that during this last class the tutor read a story ascribed to Shantananda Saraswati. Those of you who went to SES/St James schools will be familiar with it I?m sure, but I?ll reprint it so those who haven?t will have something to go on.

?There is a story which happened in Lahore. In a co-educational school, a girl lost her pen and she complained to the teacher by accusing a boy pupil. When the boy was accused, he asked the teacher to let him know the price of the pen so that he could pay tomorrow. Next day he paid and the topic came to a close. Since young people are not too clever in such matters, the real culprit brought the pen in his box which was seen by the girl. She went to the teacher and said that the pen was taken by one and the punishment paid by another. This injustice ought to be corrected. After a search, the pen was found. The perplexed teacher then asked the first boy why he paid for the pen when he had not stolen it? The boy had very disciplined parentage. He said: ?If I had protested my innocence, who would have listened to me and this would have pained me. So it seemed to me that peace of mind was more valuable than five rupees and I paid the money to save my peace.? The teacher was astonished at this answer worthy of only a great man. This established an ideal and all paid their respects to the boy.
Part 2 Session Eleven

Isn?t that an AWFUL story? If Martin Luther King Jr had understood advaita Vedanta or satyagraha this way black people in America would still be in the back of the bus.

NYC


PS
?I'm interested if major disasters like the Boxing Day tsunami were ever discussed in your class. If so was there a "justification" for the over 200,000 dead??


Hi ADG,
I don?t recall the tsunami coming up?except possibly in the sense of ?you can die at any time,? but I?m not sure about that. I can tell you I would definitely remember if the tutor said anything that blamed the victims, or implied that they deserved a tsunami to strike.

The karma aspect of advaita is probably prone to misapplication?the toughest questions any religion has to answer are probably 1) why do horrible things happen to children, and 2) why do we have to die at all.

Janneke
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Postby Janneke » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:21 pm

I?m thinking to spend a bit of time (and money) among some sheep?instead of ?simply leaving.? A friend of mine used to say (re Catholic church ? she was a lesbian feminist) ?Don?t quit the church, make them throw you out!?


Interesting you should say this. I must say I admire your friend, as I left the SES for being gay. There's no way that I could possibly have stayed in the English school and lived my life the way I do now, in a loving same sex relationship, and not having been harrassed about it.

When I told a friend in the Dutch school about my reasons of leaving he said it was a shame I hadn't been more vocal about my reasons, and tried to change the School's attitude. Well, that would have been seriously useless, unfortunately.

Having said this, the Dutch School is a little less interfering with people's every day life, it seems. My parents are still in it, my mum quite senior, and she doesn't seem to be negatively affected by my sexuality and subsequent life choices. And nor does she harrass me about it. On the contrary, I feel that my grilfriend is fully accepted by both my parents.

But I digress. NYC, do stay on and observe. That's the point of the School of Practical Philosophy, isn't it? So as long as you keep your wits and common sense about you, you'll be fine, I'm sure. Just make sure you don't start believing that anyone you come across is "better" than you, for being more senior in the School. This is a danger. Or maybe this happened to me because I grew up in the School, and couldn't as a child make the distinction between 'being respectful' to older people for their age on the one hand and believing they were better on the other. Which sort of stayed with me as I grew older. If that makes sense.

So stay on, but don't think you'll be able to change anything. It's not going to happen :Fade-color Unfortunately.
JvdW

sugarloaf
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Postby sugarloaf » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:47 am

Someone asked for the link to an article about SES courses, published in the Philosopher Magazine

Here it is: www.philosophers.co.uk/portal_article.php?id=28


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