Tracing the money trail

Discussion of the SES's satellite organisations in the USA.
Gandalf
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Modesty

Postby Gandalf » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:41 pm

Frodo,

I must be missing something. What's modest about choosing the central heroic character around whom the whole story revolves?

Kind regards,

Gandalf
(AKA modest shadowy peripheral figure with a few good lines - well OK quite a few according to some)

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Keir
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Location: London

Postby Keir » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:33 pm

Just thought that I would check the rumour that I heard that AiA had been stopped, and it was. Always useful to know the full history rather than assume that it never succumbed to a top-down edict to cease only to be reborn under a new star.

Thankyee all who were kind enough to let me know how widely it is being advertised, my point in asking was also to ascertain whether the poorer inhabitants of Oxford (the ones less likely to read Art news - assuming that they are not all poor artists that is) were likely to benefit in some way from the village fete that AiA has pretentions to be, rather than just being sold stuff like wholesome lemonade (to wash down their wholesome philosophy) etc. Or should I don my 'magical cap of SES thinking' and look at how the consciousness level would be bound to bring increased enlightenment by virtue of proximity to those of a less fortunate karma than we lucky devils at Enlightenment central.....?

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:41 pm

Gandalf ... I meant quality rather than quantity. Frodo is central to the universe but Gandalf does better fireworks.

Keir, Art in Action doesn't have pretensions to be a village fete. It's an exhibition of the arts from around the world etc etc.

Are you accusing the SES of not doing enough for the poor citizens of the locale? What would you suggest? I just assumed that a major complaint about SES membership was having to do unpaid activities and lots of them. Now you're suggesting that they do an extra night in the slums of Oxford dishing out hot soup and moral support? If the SES is to practice honesty, it would have to put this on the advertising. Something like: after several terms of lectures and seminars, you will be required to go and help ye poor on a regular basis. That would boost the recruitment, hey?

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:43 pm

Sorry, must add:

While wholesome lemonade is available at Art in Action (I assume) so is wine, champagne, pimms, coffee and tea. I don't think there's any beer, though. Which is damning, isn't it? Or does it matter?

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Keir
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Postby Keir » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:03 pm

Frodo,

I know what the literature says it is, I can read too. I just subscribe to a different view about what it actually is. But then as I have already said I am perhaps out of date in my opinions of what it is, as the last time I visited was just before they shut it down.

If you had read the entire string you might realise that I was continuing a discussion on what the SES are doing for the community ie giving back. I think it was Bella that brought up the aspect of work in the community.

I am not suggesting soup kitchens. Infact I couldn't give a monkeys about the SES doing work in the community. As far as I am concerned the less the better in its current mode.

Do you have a problem with my posts? Not as fact-filled as you would wish, a tad too long to read in a hurry?...;o)

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Tue Jul 05, 2005 9:19 pm

You said argue facts with facts. So I did. The lemonade thing. Also, how can Art in Action have pretensions to be a village fete? Have you ever been to a village fete? Village fetes don't get 25,000 people. Village fetes have bric a brac stalls and ferret races.

As for giving back to the community, I'm not sure what your position is now. Should they? You say you'd rather they wouldn't in their present form. Which is a dodge, really.

Maybe an institutional response to needs in the community would only make additional demands on the time of its membership and would therefore be impractical. Maybe members of SES do their own thing so far as helping out the poor and starving of the world is concerned. If they want to that is.

I'm sure that you toil tirelessly for the good of the world.

Having said that, this might be my last visit to the site for a few weeks as I really do have other things to do. Will return at some point however.

Byeee

daska
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Location: UK

Postby daska » Tue Jul 05, 2005 10:22 pm

The lemonade isn't wholesome, it's Schweppes

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Keir
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Postby Keir » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:28 pm

Ah Frodo,

What an angry young man you seem to be! Of course I have no idea who you actually are, and I haven't taken the time to read every one of your posts to get an idea of what your angle is on the whole thing - too busy saving the world :o)

Likewise neither do you know who I am, for all you know I helped organise Live8 with my friend Bob.

I would love to know why I wind you up so much. I have never professed to be an expert on all facts - as you would know if you read the thread. When asked for ideas I didn't presume to give Bella one as 1. I am not that interested how the SES that I know increases its influence any further than it already has and 2. It was her idea and the community she is talking about doing something about is on the other side of the world from me so I would have no idea how to meet their need.

I left the SES a long time ago, and dont agree with their take on the truth, which is fine. Is that a clear enough position for you?

The point about putting something back into the community arose out of a discussion about alternative uses of student time and effort.. AGAIN...if you had read the thread before wading in you would have seen that.

So when you come back from your residential fortnight or whatever it is you are so anxious to get away to, READ THE THREAD THOROUGHLY BEFORE JOINING IN, PLEASE. It means I wont have to type it all out again for you, as I am busy and I have better things to do.

ross nolan
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

"helicopters" etc ???

Postby ross nolan » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:36 pm

Frodo/Gandalf/ Golum etc == about the helicopters,, my point in relating the National Safety Council debacle was that !. it is quite possible for a large scale "weird" organization to function pretty much out in the open without anybody who sees something that doesn't add up not being able to get the least hearing from 'investigative' media or authorities. 2. If you name your offbeam organization something that sounds innocuous or even official,scholarly or beneficial eg "National Safety Council" or "School of Economic Science" etc then you are likely to be overlooked (cults like the "Children of the Divine Light" or somesuch get scrutiny )
3. Some organizations that find no resistance or get away with wrongdoing long enough become arrogant and drop their guard (ie go slack on the secrecy) and become easier to investigate and expose (look at the very revealing 'testimonials' by 14 yr olds on the Erasmus school site --this is unhealthy but they do not seem to realize this ) 4. Really unstable organizations can self destruct or implode with very little push once a little pressure is applied (NSCA did , SES might be ripe ...)

Enough explanations ? It might not be a bad thing to step back slightly and look at the SES in terms of other organizations and the wider society rather than getting too focussed on very specific wrongs done to individuals -- this too is important and I cannot understand why you "survivors" of the imposed abuse at the SES schools do not organize yourselves and launch a class action against the SES /SOP to not only get a feeling of vindication but some real compensation for your suffering .

You have a genuine cause (this is not a US style "sue yourself for self abuse " type frivolous lawsuit ) with substantial damage and long term loss --- most importantly your abusers have very significant financial assetts (gotten at you and your parent's expense) that can be liquidated to pay restitution and, of course, have the other desireable effect of putting paid to the hated source of your problems.

Perhaps the evidence coming out of the Townsend enquiry can be put to this purpose and of course you are able to network and organize yourselves thanks to Mike Gormez's initiative in setting up this website -- I hope there is no "without prejudice" type caveat on any use of the evidence supplied ie a prohibition on it being used in legal action. (this is only an advisory -it sometimes applies to evidence given under parliamentary privilege or confidential reporting eg Air Safety Incident reporting to raise another "unrelated" example .)

Human nature is much the same across a wide range of human activity and it is worth looking at other comparable situations to see what works and what doesn't -- I find it hard to understand why "secret cult" and the LES campaign was not better followed up or that channel used to curtail the institutionalized misconduct in the schools for the last twenty years .

Good luck with the current enquiry despite the cynicism expressed by some it is probably the beginning of the end for them , if followed up on.

Hope this helps -- it is not about helicopters really .

Ross Nolan.
Skeptic

ross nolan
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out of place

Postby ross nolan » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:39 pm

PS the above posting has somehow skipped to the wrong thread I will go back and locate the one I was replying to and post it RN
Skeptic

ross nolan
Posts: 184
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Location: Melbourne Australia

PPS

Postby ross nolan » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:53 pm

PPS Sorry it was the right thread just that a bunch of new postings appeared whilst I was typing my reply -- this site is really hotting up.
While I'm here -- I do not quite get the Frodo Vs Keir dispute and the stilted nature of internet 'talk' leaves scope for misunderstanding -- is it all that important who supplies the lemonade ? .....

Can somonone please tell me what "manu" is in the SES contaxt -- it was referred to in a PM as something I should have known . I don't.

Prize for the best answer,
.
Ross Nolan (al;so a LOTR fan )
Skeptic

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bella
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Postby bella » Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:43 am

The lemonade is indeed crucial. Schweppes, while having a lot of bubbles which help give a refreshing clean aftertaste, has too much sugar and the bubbles get up your nose. Wimmer's Traditional has a much more lemony flavour, and not so many bubbles. Perhaps, though, daska prefers homemade. I must say I do too.

The Laws of Manu is a text referred to and recommended by the school, which sets out appropriate behaviour for a number of alarmingly specific circumstances, as well as more general ones. It's a guide for godly behaviour and "natural law", by my reckoning. A Google search will tell you more.

ross nolan
Posts: 184
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Location: Melbourne Australia

lemonade and manu

Postby ross nolan » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:54 am

Thanks bella - I stand corrected on the lemonade.

I am googling "manu" even as we speak -- does anyone know how to get hold of any of Mac Laren's writings Eg "Justice" and at least one other title I don't recall just now Are there any other 'explanatory' texts that tell the story from the organization's viewpoint ? (unlike the JW's who are actually 'the bible and tract society'.. and thrive on distributing masses of printed material to gain new adherents it seems that the SES prints virtually nothing and you cannot be "saved" by correspondence (do you have to wait for a fortuitous reincarnation near to an SES branch office to get to Nirvana ? )

Thanks for advice Ross .
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Free Thinker
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Postby Free Thinker » Wed Jul 06, 2005 5:16 am

Frodo wrote:Are you accusing the SES of not doing enough for the poor citizens of the locale? What would you suggest? I just assumed that a major complaint about SES membership was having to do unpaid activities and lots of them. Now you're suggesting that they do an extra night in the slums of Oxford dishing out hot soup and moral support? If the SES is to practice honesty, it would have to put this on the advertising. Something like: after several terms of lectures and seminars, you will be required to go and help ye poor on a regular basis. That would boost the recruitment, hey?


I'm not sure what Keir thinks about community service but I'll say very loud and clear that the SES isn't doing a DAMN thing about service to the community. Do I think that members should have 1-2 days of school service and then go out and also do service in the community? No way. I'm saying that they should be able to do that INSTEAD of school service. For example, some people will choose to shine the brass doorknobs at the building on 79th street, while others will choose to tutor poor kids at the East Harlem Tutorial Center about 15 blocks away. The school should equally support both types of service and have discussions about how the exercises were practiced (the Pause, etc.) in both types of environments.

Better yet, they should require everyone to do community service instead of cleaning, etc. at the school and then hire people in the community who really need the work to do it (thus helping out the community with volunteering while supporting the local economy-which they have plenty of money to do!)

Oh, and you asked in another thread whether we had lives or not.

I volunteer; I teach; I'm about to get my Master's degree; I'm married; and I am involved in political action. Is that busy enough for you? Should I also list my hobbies so that you can make sure I'm not spending too much time on this board? I'm not in therapy for the many personal problems growing up the SES caused - can I substitute time I might spend there for time I spend here? Do you mind if I try to figure out why I've been so messed up and get better? Do you mind if others here try to deal with having been severely physically and emotionally abused as children and young adults? I bite my thumb at you!

Frodo
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Postby Frodo » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:49 am

Oh alright, I couldn't help just logging in to see how Keir responded to my last message. I presume capital letters mean a raised voice ... ?

However, I didn't say I was anxious and I wasn't in the least bit angry. I've got a busy job and a young family, lots of hobbies and service to the community to get on with!

I just said that you said we should argue facts with facts. It is my understanding that the annual residential week that SES students attend is a week long, not a fortnight. Actually, that's seven days plus an evening for arrival and an early departure the next day. I mention this because facts are important. And that means the whole fact. Half facts or distorted facts tend to be given for a number of reasons: laziness, imprecision, not being in possession of the full facts, misunderstanding or that the half that's been missed out undermines the point that the bit being offered is trying to make.

For instance, in another thread there is a reference to the SES's archaic heating and washing systems. I'm not sure how dishwashers, clothes washers and tumble dryers are archaic, but what about the heating? The poster was referring to collecting wood for open fires. Open fires happen to be quite fashionable these days, probably thanks to Lawrence Llwellen Bown, and are nice on a cold winter's day/evening. In SES buildings, such as Waterperry, the open fires supplement the heating provided by radiators and electric fires. In Nanpantan wood drops off the trees. It doesn't seem to be a departure into deranged practices to collect the wood off the drive and stick it in a fireplace so that people can enjoy a nice flickering flame. The half fact implies an SES aversion to the modern world, lumping it in with Amish and Menonite ideologies. Lazily, it takes no effort to then assume that SES students live or try to live in the same isolated way as the members of such communities and engage in much the same practices. Well, all the conclusions derive from a dodgy bit of half-information and are therefore, in themselves, potentially dodgy.

So when Gandalf (salutations) was with Lambie - described in another thread - and heard Lambie dismissing some student on the telephone, were you eves-dropping? Were you sitting in an armchair with him sipping sherry? Were you pals? Did you get the whole conversation? What did he say to you before and after? I'm not disputing that you have a point, but a little variance of information (fortnight residentials) can lead to off-beam conclusions that are then simply not true.

As for service to the community, which Free Thinker is so vehement about, it can be argued that the SES is entirely a service. To keep the premises clean and tidy is to the benefit of all the students. The students are part of the community. The SES was founded on the quest for social justice and the work that it does is directly to that end. People give up their time to help other people. You're just trying to define what you think the service should be. I'm sure that SES members do a lot for their communities. The work done within SES buildings is mainly practice, with a benefit, obviously, to its membership. The rest is entirely to do with how the students respond in their daily lives which to great extend concerns how much they can do for people.

And with all due respect to Ross, I still don't really get the argument that you can analyse one institution by analysing another. The government of Zimbabwe is corrupt. The Irish government is a government. Therefore the Irish government is corrupt. Duh.


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