Where I'm at

Discussion of the SES's satellite organisations in the USA.
cm006j
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Where I'm at

Postby cm006j » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:26 pm

Hello, everyone. I just discovered you. I'm in a weird, middle ground place with my feelings. My name is Carolyn. I grew up in the school, in Boston. I was there from birth to 22 years old. I'm 29 now. Sorry ahead of time, this intro is going to be rambling and disjointed, as it is hard for me to formulate my thoughts on this subject. I'm a writer, trained as a novelist, and I've been working on a short story based on an incident that happened on a retreat, so trying to delve back into that is what brought me here.

I'm very conflicted.

I think my experiences were not nearly as bad as those in England and some of the other, more organized branches.

Yet I feel hurt by what I did experience.

I know there's no perfect way to raise kids and I can't be angry at my parents for bringing me up in SES. They did believe in its teachings. They thought it was going to make me a the best possible person, give me the key to life. They still believe in the philosophy, though they are separated from SES now.

I really believed in philosophy with all my heart as a kid. I was a teacher's pet type. I tried so hard to do it right, to fit in, to win approval from the tutors, from Mrs. Lambie. I'm mostly just hurt that I never got it.

I left SES only because I went to graduate school in California where there was not a branch. I took the teachings with me, but had no access to a school and that's when my mind began to open. I lost my ability to see right and wrong in rigid black and white ways, as I had been taught by the school.

I began to separate the spiritual beliefs I have from the social conditioning of the school and declared myself a Hindu. I now practice Hinduism, but I take it in my own way. I don't listen to gurus, I don't trust anyone to tell me what the truth is, I trust only my own experience. It's been about seven years since I was last in touch with the school.

I think the lasting effects are that of feeling not good enough, too emotional, not correct. I'm used to a lot of guilt and fear of doing things wrong. I have great difficulty interacting with the regular world, I don't feel confident in being able to deal with life. I don't believe that I know how to love. But then I think that might just be normal. That might be how I always would have been due to my own personality.

I don't want to think that my parents were wrong to be part of this organization. They love it, they still practice it. I don't want to hurt them by saying I regret my childhood. Again, I think maybe everyone is damaged by something, and I didn't suffer the way many others did.

One thing that bothers me is the teaching that everything is a choice, like being unhappy is a choice, but anything that isn't school sanctioned is the wrong choice. We're told what our choice should be and then after that told that our hearts will back up that belief because it is Truth. If our experience does not match up, then we are choosing to follow some impure, untruthful part of ourselves...? It's backward from scientific principle, which the school claims to be using.

I'm afraid that I don't know how to live a good life now that the rules have disappeared from under me. It's like trying to walk a tight rope with no safety net.

It does feed on the idea that we are better, more special, than people who don't accept the teachings. The way we looked down on people who left! I couldn't understand at the time why anyone would walk away from it. How else could one be happy? Have a satisfying life?

I thought that SES was the only way to live a good life, to be focused on the correct goal, etc. It's just starting to sink in for me that there are millions of people in the world who turned out just fine without SES!

I have some very strange problems with sexual things and I'm thinking that must be related to the school, the messages that sunk into my brain there.

Part of me wants to be angry, but I can't seem to give myself permission to do that.

Another strange thing is, I remember after I went to the youth retreat in England when I was 15, someone got hold of the email list and sent a message to the kids who had attended that SES was a cult. I was so angry at that woman. I don't know who she was, but I was furious that she couldn't just leave me alone and let me practice as I wanted to. I was very sensitive to anyone calling it a cult.

I'm afraid to say anything against them. I don't know what I'm afraid of! A big part of me can't let go of seeking approval from the higher ups in the school.

So, there it is. That's as articulate as I'm able to be about it so far. I am in therapy now and so I think that will help me to speak and think about it more clearly.

I would love to connect with people that I knew from that life, people I went on retreat with, etc. I hope someone will remember me. I'm afraid I'm not very memorable! I was a quiet, withdrawn kid.

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby actuallythere » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 am

Dear Carolyn,

All I can say is that from both my head and my heart I know you are doing the right thing. Talking it through with a therapist seems like a tremendous idea. I hope you find that person helpful. If they're not, never forget you are always entitled to try second and third opinions. Like car mechanics, therapists don't have an absolute monopoly on the truth - you always have the right to try another. You probably already know this, but there is a whole branch of therapy devoted to people who have had experience of New Religious Movements such as SES.

The conflict that you speak of is shared by thousands of people who have had experience of SES. The psychological turmoil is possibly more complicated when one has not gone through the most visceral abuse, those who have never been hit or publicly humiliated by an SES teacher. Your situation is a replica of the vast majority of people who have had to leave SES for personal reasons. There are more people very much like you than there are existing members of the SES.

The way forward is to hold on to your individuality, the things you know to be true without having been told them.

For example, with your individuality, you've identified the central contradiction of SES: Despite SES purporting to help people transcend the limitations of the ego, its members are drawn to it to boost their egos - by the egocentric desire to feel superior over wider society (they'd always deny this of course, unless they are starting to question themselves about why they are there). You've also spotted that people who leave are shunned and looked down on (from a superior height). Keep hold of these observations, take confidence from them, and make more.

You've also observed that one tries "so hard to do it right, to fit in, to win approval" and that one is "very sensitive to anyone calling it a cult". These are absolutely standard feelings that people go through in New Religious Movements such as SES. NRMs are often about boosting and preserving self esteem. The reason why people are drawn into them is the same reason why members can't handle criticism of them.

One can delve into the root cause of this self esteem issue. For example, what inside us draws us to a privileged group with special answers? What inside us draws us to the promise of absolute truth? The reality is that you have everything going for you without the group and its conformity.

My firm believe is that writing your own rules now could be a very exciting prospect for you. From the observations you have made, I am certain that deep down inside you, you have an instinctive feeling of what goodness is, and you don't need any absolute authority to tell you what it is.

By the way, the SES trope 'surrendering' can be translated in the wider world as 'repression'. One can never entirely surrender/repress deep feelings of grief, love, joy, anger, shame, desire. These feelings are important and make us who we are. I would say, and you may disagree with me, that there's no obligation to feel guilty about honest feelings. Honest feelings are natural. Your anger at SES or your parents is as legitimate as every other feeling you have, including the sexual feelings you write of. Who knows, perhaps the more you let your honest feelings flow, the more everything else will as well.

At the same time, its always worth balancing honesty with tact and consideration for others. Therapists sometimes encourage us to be honest and open with other people about our feelings, and then the client goes and tells her husband she thinks his beer gut is disguising and that she has a crush on his brother. Next stop, divorce lawyer. Be honest, but never abandon tact! I would say the same would be true of SES parents. They are going to like the 'cult' label even less than you did (it will be a challenge to their self esteem, triggering their shame and guilt), and I would suggest you take care about using it with people who love you, just because it may be more trouble than it is worth. If your therapist specializes in NRMs they will be much better at commenting on this specific point than I am.

I loved your metaphor, that it's like trying to walk a tight rope with no safety net. I would extend that metaphor, and tell you that very many people have walked it ahead of you - because in fact, that tightrope is just one little step off the ground. And the ground feels great.

cm006j
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby cm006j » Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:31 pm

I think you're really right about the repression thing.

It disturbs me that we are taught to not think about and not dwell on negative things. I mean, that sounds great, but in my observation, people deny real emotions and have a fake front of cheer that isn't real happiness. I think we do need to experience our full range of emotion and let it be what it is.

Censoring things, ignoring books because they are "bad food for the mind," I just can't agree with that. I've been told that I should write books with no conflict in them, that that would be uplifting and inspirational and the world has enough conflict. And yet what's inspirational really is people going through pain and conflict and coming out the other side. Only philosophers would read a book with no conflict in it!

When I first started seeing my therapist she said I seemed ambivalent, and I wasn't able to engage in the world or care about anything. It turned out that was happening because my inner being was fighting within itself. My true nature is big, artistic, exaggerated, emotional, and sprawling. But those are supposedly not things that describe the Self, and so I've spent my whole life trying to squeeze my big personality into a box of proper, demure, correct, gentle, etc. When I started to allow my natural feelings through, I became a much happier and more comfortable person instantly!

But there's still that little part of me that worries that those natural feelings are the layers of ignorance from lifetimes of "sin" and that my instincts are wrong. Then I go back the other way and think how could it be bad when it makes me happy? Then I think is it really happiness or is it hedonistic? Is pleasure seeking as bad as I've always been told it is?

I agree about the guilt thing too. Another thing my therapist said is that the only time it is appropriate to feel guilt is when you've done something malicious and malevolent. I will try not to upset my parents, I won't make them feel bad if I can at all help it, but I also need to continue a journey inward, to really understand the Self and not just what I've been told it is.

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby actuallythere » Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:58 pm

Thanks for writing back soon. Am glad I wrote something that might have made sense. I can't reply again in full right now, but just noticed that you said:

cm006j wrote:Only philosophers would read a book with no conflict in it!


I just wanted to point out that SES stole the word "philosopher" from the world - and we're stealing it back!

There are plenty of philosophers who are into conflict, passion, emotion, tragedy and comedy. By pretending that is not the case, SES cannot claim to be philosophers.

Philosophers include Kant, Kierkegaard, Sappho, Sartre, Sinatra, Springfield, and of course Friedrich 'take the whip' Nietzsche, who also said: "Morality has no terrors for her who has risen beyond good and evil. And though Morality may continue to devour its victims, it is utterly powerless in the face of the modern spirit, that shines in all its glory upon the brow of man and woman, liberated and unafraid."

There is a whole avenue of early feminist post-Nietzschean thought, notably the philosopher Emma Goldman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Goldman , whose audiobook you can listen to for free right here http://librivox.org/anarchism-and-other ... a-goldman/

Just make sure you don't listen to it with your full attention ;-)

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby woodgreen » Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:21 pm

Just wanted to say hi and welcome CM - your postings show just how far this awful organisation has spread its tentacles. From small towns in Britain to places in the USA, Australia, and many other Countries - the School even has an outpost in Israel, hopefully not for long. Do not feel guilty or worried about the why's and wherefore's of your time in the SES. Unfortunately it can and does spoil an awful lot of peoples freedom of mind and emotions for differing lengths of time. What is important is that you have understood what the School did to you and you are able to articulate yourself. Sorry I can't post longer, but there seems to be a problem with either my laptop or the site at the moment - my enter key won't work, and Daffy when you see this - I keep getting the message " you have tried to log in too many times" etc, when I haven't and it takes two or three goes at the encrypted letters and numbers to log in. Beginning to wonder if I have a hacker - or maybe the site has, because the drop down box shows previous encrypted letters and numbers. regards , woodgreen.
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

cm006j
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby cm006j » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:33 pm

Right, I need to find another word for SES people rather than "philosopher." When I use that word I don't mean it by its real meaning!

cm006j
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:33 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby cm006j » Fri Apr 01, 2011 2:34 pm

woodgreen wrote:Just wanted to say hi and welcome CM - your postings show just how far this awful organisation has spread its tentacles. From small towns in Britain to places in the USA, Australia, and many other Countries - the School even has an outpost in Israel, hopefully not for long. Do not feel guilty or worried about the why's and wherefore's of your time in the SES. Unfortunately it can and does spoil an awful lot of peoples freedom of mind and emotions for differing lengths of time. What is important is that you have understood what the School did to you and you are able to articulate yourself. Sorry I can't post longer, but there seems to be a problem with either my laptop or the site at the moment - my enter key won't work, and Daffy when you see this - I keep getting the message " you have tried to log in too many times" etc, when I haven't and it takes two or three goes at the encrypted letters and numbers to log in. Beginning to wonder if I have a hacker - or maybe the site has, because the drop down box shows previous encrypted letters and numbers. regards , woodgreen.


Thanks for the welcome. :)

woodgreen
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:07 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby woodgreen » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:50 pm

Thanks Carolyn ( sorry for not using your real name previously - a forum thing I think!) and to Daffy - I was able to log in straight away so whatever the problem was it has gone. You are right about the term philosophy and philosophers. The SES are certainly not " lovers of wisdom" . The SES leaders are not lovers of anything, except themselves, which sums up the cult of McLaren. Hopefully all of us on the Forum try to respect all those who leave the SES ( unlike the SES itself) and if Philosophy is still something you are interested in, then do pursue your studies. I think it will be part of the process of losing the control that the SES had in your family - and the SES does not give up it's control readily by the way. Suspect they resort to some dark forces at times to maintain their illusion of superiority. (apologies - enter key still not working!) . There probably are some people still in the SES who are doing their version of philosophy and may well be some of the nicer guys and gals that we have met - like the worker bees they are collecting honey for the Queen - possibly a metaphor for the people in the School trying to keep the leading ladies sweet - the wives of the leaders maybe? Whilst their husbands still try to emulate the old ***tard McLaren. Hope they don't contact him in the spiritual world for inspiration - they may find themselves in Hell ( and or it's equivalent in the Hindu tradition). OMG just had a worry - maybe McLaren has been reincarnated but no-one knows as what and where - for a laugh, any suggestions everyone? Is he in India perhaps, practising to be a proper holy man?! Or back in Glasgow as a wee boy trying to get it right this time? With respect, as always, to those who believe in reincarnation, something I have failed to fully understand. cheers, woodgreen.
Ex-SES Member. (Member for 3 years in late nineties).

chittani
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:03 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby chittani » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:50 pm

Hello Carolyn

I was very moved by reading what you wrote. I was in the SES about as long as you, although I joined as an adult. We may have crossed paths in the 90s, I'm not sure.

I suppose what rings true in what you say is the mixture of feelings that the SES appears to have left you with. There's no doubt that many people have a spiritual awakening in School, and that's a very precious thing. I think some of the hurt comes about because there isn't the wisdom that ought to surround someone in that open state.

It's interesting what you say about censoring emotions and so forth. That is absolutely central to the SES. I think that I was attracted to it at first for exactly that reason - it helped me to put a lid on my emotions. I don't actually think that did me any harm - I always had a sense that there were emotions in me that were too dangerous to let out to play - but it was of its time. About three years ago I suddenly felt it was time to leave, that there were things I had to learn about myself and things I had to face. No more mind-stopping, surrendering etc.

It's been an interesting journey since.

I don't totally accept what actuallythere said, that surrender = repression. In my experience surrender is about going to the spiritual, a realm in which the feelings genuinely don't have validity because they don't exist at that level. Psychologically, it's more like disassociation, which isn't good either. The problem is, of course, that one can't live in the spiritual, so the problems don't go away.

When I left the SES I had the weird sense of having binged on the spiritual, overused it, and thus abused it in a way. Retreating from it has felt like a way of restoring something.

Ironically, Shantananda said a few times (including in published books) that the best way to grow spiritually was to speak from the heart, and act on one's words. Very different to self-censorship! That part of the message was never listened to, because it didn't fit with the positive-thinking ideology.

You also describe very well the sense of sin and guilt that is never far away, because everyone is trying so hard to be pure and true, and feeling usually a bit like a failure. What doesn't help is the consistent message that if there's a problem it's because you're not working hard enough, or because of ego.

I always felt that was a real abdication of responsibility on the part of the School, to put the blame on the student. What a School ought to say is that if there's a problem, we must be failing to meet your needs in some way, because you are that consciousness, and consciousness is always perfect ... whereas an institution like a School can't ever be perfect, because it doesn't have a Self. I wouldn't really use those terms myself, but it's the logical conclusion if you believe in a transcendent Self.

I personally think that it would help a lot of people both in and out of the SES if there were a concept of graduation. All schools graduate students. What graduation does is (a) acknowledges the efforts of the student (b) honestly admits the limitations of the school (c) ritually marks the point at which the student is ready to be independent. Without that kind of ritual, people who decide to leave always have that lingering feeling of negativity, that maybe because the School doesn't accept them leaving, it wasn't the right thing to do. It's not 'clean' - as evidenced by the tormented feelings you report.

A school that doesn't graduate anyone is like a parent who won't let a child leave home. They're in their thirties, or forties, still tied in to the apron strings, emotionally crippled and with no dignity.

I think that going for therapy is a good move on your part. You are absolutely able to do this, to free yourself from what's limiting you at the moment. Good luck!

Goblinboy
Moderator
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Re: Where I'm at

Postby Goblinboy » Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:14 am

Chittani,
No time to do more than acknowledge, from my perspective, a really insightful reflection. More later.
And thanks for joining some dots to help see your personal journey.
Much respect,
GB

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby actuallythere » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:31 am

Dear Chittani,

Absolutely agree with you that a school without graduation is not a school. Personally I get the impression a school without graduation is a prison. You've very eloquently highlighted one of the central contradictions that SES creates for people.

Another big one is its teaching that everything is an illusion, but some things are more of an illusion than others.

How is it possible, say, that when a daughter gets freaked out by a father's glazed eyes when he returns from a week at Waterperry House it is an "illusion" (that one day she'll learn to "surrender to the Absolute" ), but the SES's need for him to perform "duty" at their multimillion pound property empire is not an illusion?

To these contradictions could be added the surrendering/repressing issue. In my observation "surrendering" is only ever ritualized repression mocked up as spirituality. So one becomes more 'aware' of spontaneous aggression - where does the aggression go? Can it really evaporate so easily? Is the cause of the spontaneous aggression addressed or is it temporarily suppressed and then diverted toward more legitimate applications of aggression, such as the imposition of discipline on children, spouses, people of lower rank in the organization or those outside or rejecting it?

Based the well documented 40 year tradition of psychological and physical abuse at SES, and the lies and avoidance that cover it up, many people say that no it jolly well can't. Personally I'm convinced that "surrendering" is a tragic sham, tragic because good people are fooled by it and often end up worse off. It absolutely sounds good and sounds well intentioned, and I'm sure it gives the feeling of working. That's what's so destructive about it, and it is why SES is riven with pride, shame, vanity, paranoia, lying and abuse.

SES purports to help people transcend the limitations of the ego, primarily through ritualized processes. This is fatal because ordinary human beings trying to lead family and working lives cannot transcend the limitations of the ego. It is far more constructive, in my honest opinion, to look into one's ego and try to understand it better. If one is lucky enough to stumble upon a great therapist then that is a great help, but nothing beats the love of family and friends.

For example, if I'd been your friend back when you first signed up to SES, I'd plead with you to consider that all of these scary emotions SES seem to be helping you manage are an entirely human product of nature. I'd humbly suggest you to talk through with someone why it could be that you are having them and what incited them. I would urge you not to take advice from people telling you to detach yourself from your past by "living in the present moment". Your past will never escape you, it is a part of your identity like your eyes are part of your body. So long as you don't avoid your past by allowing a group to mould you a new, born-again identity that only exists in the present, that needn't be a troublesome prospect.

Those are my heartfelt, honest feelings on the matter!

Best wishes

AT

chittani
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:03 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby chittani » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:25 pm

GoblinBoy,

Thanks, that's very kind of you. It's good to hear from you, as always.

AT,

I was only partly taking issue with part of what you said. I think your main points are right and I think the advice you mention would have been useful to hear. I just don't think 'surrender' is (C) SES. They didn't invent it and it's in every spiritual tradition. It has a use, and it can be overused.

A school without graduation = a prison? I suppose it could be, but I prefer the analogy of a grown up child that hasn't flown the nest. There are two sides to it - the child who is afraid of leaving, and the parent who doesn't want to let them go. Co-dependency.

When you think about it, a teacher that won't graduate students is a pretty odd kind of teacher. A prison guard has the express job of keeping people locked up, so at least there is an honesty to that. A teacher is supposed to teach what they know, and then stop. If the kids don't want to move on, they need to be gently ushered to the exit. A teacher that won't let the students go is holding on for private emotional reasons. It's bad for both, but the teacher ought to know better - or ought to have been trained to know better.

All of these things come down to management, I think. If people are managed well they do OK; if they're not, they get stuff wrong. The lack of a graduation ritual kind of poisons everything in the SES because as the School would say, it's not lawful. You end up with one lot of people pretending they know, and another lot pretending they don't.

I cheekily asked my first tutor why he was sitting in the chair, and I wasn't. He said, "Because I know more about you than you know about me." Great answer.

It was a good question too - and one I should have asked more often.

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby actuallythere » Sun May 01, 2011 10:15 am

We're in agreement here. I'm referring to a mental prison, and your parent/child analogy is the perfect illustration.

I seriously doubt that tutor knew more about you than you knew about the tutor. What an egotistical remark the tutor made.

It is extraordinary that this organization creates dependency by boosting egos and reducing self awareness, while promising to do quite the contrary.

chittani
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:03 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby chittani » Sun May 01, 2011 11:41 am

AT,

Yes, I think we are in agreement really. It's the grey areas that are the most interesting to me, so I hope you'll excuse my fussing over details. ;-)

I'm sure he did know more about me, since I was a 17 year old with very little knowledge of anything - and even less awareness of my own ignorance! Maybe it was ego ... but fair enough. I was challenging him to stand up and be counted - and he stood up. Good for him.

He wasn't saying he was superior to me, or that he would always know more than me. He was saying "You don't know it all, kiddo", which is always such a relief for kiddo to hear. The adult is saying that the kid doesn't have to do it all by themselves.

I recently heard that he's had a lot of personal problems late in life, which I was sorry to hear of, but wasn't very surprised about.

actuallythere
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:05 pm

Re: Where I'm at

Postby actuallythere » Sun May 01, 2011 4:04 pm

Nothing to excuse!

I've a hunch that if the tutor was the kind of person who could have replied to you "Why do you think?", and encourage you to hone your independent observational faculties - instead of claiming he was going bestow knowledge onto you - he might not have later had an emotional breakdown.

Best wishes,

AT


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