EXPERIENCES AT ST. VEDAST (now St. James) AND THE S.E.S
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Bruce Jacobs
Please do not mis-interpret my post. I am not saying anyone should be suspended. I am not even saying there should be this enquiry. First, I am saying that a lot of the complaints on this site are trivial. Second, a lot of the more violent incidents are certainly unacceptable by today?s standards; but the accepted standards of 20 years ago were very different: it?s a valid debate as to how the incidents should be approached ? if at all. Third, it is absolutely no good demanding a balanced and fair enquiry and in the same breath using terms such as child abuser and threatening humiliation to various people. Not only do you do yourself a disservice, but you also undermine a process that might be of interest and value to many others. The founders of this site can congratulate themselves for getting the school to respond in such an unprecedented manner. Now it is important that both sides, school and ex-pupils, proceed in a manner that is genuine, balanced and fair to those involved.
Bruce, I would be very careful about what you term "trivial". One man's meat is another man's poison.....are you a recognised authority in abuse cases, or are you just measuring others suffering by your own standards?
Similarly, what was accepted 20 years ago is largely irrelevant when it comes to punching, kicking and throwing children against the wall - none of it is behaviour that is (or was) acceptable of a teacher. You can neither use the excuse that it was commonplace, mainly because it wasn't, but also because two wrongs have never made a right. There was excessive corporal punishment too, which has been admitted by ND himself, so trying to defend any of it is a pointless exercise.
As for as labelling it "Child Abuse" - what would you call it? I can't think of a better term to describe what happened in my day. Why should labeling abuse as such prevent a balanced and fair enquiry? Any enquiry should be run by totally independent people who look at facts alone.
And after the many years of humiliation that many of us suffered, giving a little of that self-same medicine back is an understandable emotional reaction don't you think? Everyone is different (something that was never taken into account when I was at school) and each will have a different reaction to their situation. The views on this board are entirely independent and should be read as such, even if together they build up a picture of one dissatisfied body of ex-pupils.
Similarly, what was accepted 20 years ago is largely irrelevant when it comes to punching, kicking and throwing children against the wall - none of it is behaviour that is (or was) acceptable of a teacher. You can neither use the excuse that it was commonplace, mainly because it wasn't, but also because two wrongs have never made a right. There was excessive corporal punishment too, which has been admitted by ND himself, so trying to defend any of it is a pointless exercise.
As for as labelling it "Child Abuse" - what would you call it? I can't think of a better term to describe what happened in my day. Why should labeling abuse as such prevent a balanced and fair enquiry? Any enquiry should be run by totally independent people who look at facts alone.
And after the many years of humiliation that many of us suffered, giving a little of that self-same medicine back is an understandable emotional reaction don't you think? Everyone is different (something that was never taken into account when I was at school) and each will have a different reaction to their situation. The views on this board are entirely independent and should be read as such, even if together they build up a picture of one dissatisfied body of ex-pupils.
Agree on Southwell. Boddy must act or face the consequences. He is either with the abusers or with the victims. If he doesn't act soon, the PRESENT DAY St James will suffer with lots of media and publicity and humiliation stunts we have planned. Boddy, do you want to be remembered as the man who brought St James down?
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Boddy, for gods sake just suspend, pending full investigation, the named teachers who are still teaching. What on earth are you thinking?
I have no wish (at this stage) for newspaper publications, publicity stunts and rest. It will make the whole process harder for both you, and all the survivors of the schools. It will also damage your current school, and probably lead to many parents removing their children.
Has there not been enough damage and pain caused already by the SESs involvement in educating children? You have a duty of care not to cause any more by disrupting current children?s education.
Once you?ve taken this first step, which is the least that should be expected if you are in anyway sincere about this process, then we can move on to the next. Don?t destroy your school now.
You have one chance to bring this whole distasteful episode to a dignified conclusion.
Don?t fuck it up.
If we do all agree to an enquiry, it needs to be independent, impartial, far reaching and directly address the allegations.
If you attempt a cover up, and suppress the truth, you surely must be aware that the effect on your school will be totally destructive. You must know you really have only one option: however difficult it is for you, allow the truth to be told, acknowledge your responsibility, and take whatever action is required to right the wrongs of your predecessors.
Then at least you have a chance to rebuild your school on some respectable values, rather than the sad, corrupt and contemptible foundation on which it currently sits.
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Guest
It is with some temerity I contribute to this board, as a parent who has had two sons educated at St james, and been a member of SES for 20 years, although I left it some 9 years ago.
Like others, I have been deeply shocked by posts on this board. Some have been deeply moving, and made me very, very, sad. I know most of the people referred to by name.
As members of SES, like other people my wife and I wanted the best education for our sons, and believed implicitly, without question, that St James would provide it. After reading these posts, I had to ask my elder son whether he experienced anything of what is related here.
He replied that he had not. Just that St James had not prepared him very well for the wider world.
Clearly there needs to be a proper independent enquiry. What troubles me about some recent posts is the requirement for REVENGE. LETS MAKE THEM PAY....
It is completely understandable to feel this way, but is it the right way forward? We are talking about events that happened in the 70s and 80s. Any form of revenge would most likely affect the schools as they are today, the pupils and staff of today, all but two of whom had nothing to do with what happened those years ago.
The most heartening posts here are those from ex St Vedast pupils who met up with Mr Barber. Reading their posts, it seems that what happened in the past was confronted and dealt with, making it possible to move on. I hope others will do something similar. They set an example to everyone, teacher and pupil alike.
My own experience at school may have some relevance. My father was an athlete and a rugby player. He wanted the best education for me, and sent me to a boarding school in Edinburgh well known for the excellence of its rugby. Unfortunately, I was not athletic or good at rugby, nor was I academically brilliant. So I was considered a nonentity.
You could be beaten for the most trivial things, walking through a door in front of a prefect, for example. Beatings were administered with a leather strap, called a tawse, four or six strokes on each hand. To protect against a poor aim, wrists had to be bound up with thick woolen scarves. You may imagine being called in to the Prefect's room, standing in the middle of the floor with 20 or so Prefects lounging around the walls watching, being given a scathe (told what you were being punished for) and then being beaten either by a senior Prefect or the Head boy. After that, you had to run out and put your hands alternately in hot and cold water. Masters could do it too, same thing but in their study.
It took about 10 years after leaving school to un-learn the effects of the school years, and I never wanted to go back to the place. Then, some years later, in Edinburgh on business, I had some free time and went back to have a look.
The place had changed. The sounds were different. The smells were different. The buildings had been modernised. There was a new Library where the draughty old Cloisters had been. I even met my old Chemistry master who told me he had vowed never to speak to me again after I had failed my Chemistry 'A' Level. I left that day quite happy never to go back again but realising that everything had moved on. The school had moved on. I had moved on. It was only my memories that were stuck in the past.
So to those who have written about their awful experiences so clearly in these pages, it is my hope that you feel you can do something similar. Go and visit St James as it is today. Have a look round. Talk to the teachers who are there now. My belief is you'll find it is a different place. Like everything else, St James has moved on. You may find that you have too.
Like others, I have been deeply shocked by posts on this board. Some have been deeply moving, and made me very, very, sad. I know most of the people referred to by name.
As members of SES, like other people my wife and I wanted the best education for our sons, and believed implicitly, without question, that St James would provide it. After reading these posts, I had to ask my elder son whether he experienced anything of what is related here.
He replied that he had not. Just that St James had not prepared him very well for the wider world.
Clearly there needs to be a proper independent enquiry. What troubles me about some recent posts is the requirement for REVENGE. LETS MAKE THEM PAY....
It is completely understandable to feel this way, but is it the right way forward? We are talking about events that happened in the 70s and 80s. Any form of revenge would most likely affect the schools as they are today, the pupils and staff of today, all but two of whom had nothing to do with what happened those years ago.
The most heartening posts here are those from ex St Vedast pupils who met up with Mr Barber. Reading their posts, it seems that what happened in the past was confronted and dealt with, making it possible to move on. I hope others will do something similar. They set an example to everyone, teacher and pupil alike.
My own experience at school may have some relevance. My father was an athlete and a rugby player. He wanted the best education for me, and sent me to a boarding school in Edinburgh well known for the excellence of its rugby. Unfortunately, I was not athletic or good at rugby, nor was I academically brilliant. So I was considered a nonentity.
You could be beaten for the most trivial things, walking through a door in front of a prefect, for example. Beatings were administered with a leather strap, called a tawse, four or six strokes on each hand. To protect against a poor aim, wrists had to be bound up with thick woolen scarves. You may imagine being called in to the Prefect's room, standing in the middle of the floor with 20 or so Prefects lounging around the walls watching, being given a scathe (told what you were being punished for) and then being beaten either by a senior Prefect or the Head boy. After that, you had to run out and put your hands alternately in hot and cold water. Masters could do it too, same thing but in their study.
It took about 10 years after leaving school to un-learn the effects of the school years, and I never wanted to go back to the place. Then, some years later, in Edinburgh on business, I had some free time and went back to have a look.
The place had changed. The sounds were different. The smells were different. The buildings had been modernised. There was a new Library where the draughty old Cloisters had been. I even met my old Chemistry master who told me he had vowed never to speak to me again after I had failed my Chemistry 'A' Level. I left that day quite happy never to go back again but realising that everything had moved on. The school had moved on. I had moved on. It was only my memories that were stuck in the past.
So to those who have written about their awful experiences so clearly in these pages, it is my hope that you feel you can do something similar. Go and visit St James as it is today. Have a look round. Talk to the teachers who are there now. My belief is you'll find it is a different place. Like everything else, St James has moved on. You may find that you have too.
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Guest
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Guest
For the record
There are postings by anon. These postings represent the views of no one but himself. Whoever is reading this, please note that when this person uses 'we' he is referring only to himself - not the views of anyone else.
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a different guest
- Posts: 620
- Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
- Location: Australia
There have now been a couple of posts (one by one of the teachers) about how bad THEIR school days were - as this somehow puts in a reasonable context what happened at ST james in the 70s and 80s as understandable, if not normal.
Jeesh I am reminded of that old Python sketch.
"Luxery! When I grew up we lived in a shoebox on the M4. We used to lick the road for dinner..."
Ot another sketch (province I can't remember) where a group of old men are reminising about their school days and saying how wonderful it was being "buggered by the prefects" and how "soft" kids of today are.
Jeesh I am reminded of that old Python sketch.
"Luxery! When I grew up we lived in a shoebox on the M4. We used to lick the road for dinner..."
Ot another sketch (province I can't remember) where a group of old men are reminising about their school days and saying how wonderful it was being "buggered by the prefects" and how "soft" kids of today are.
Anonymous wrote:EEERRRMMMMM.........
Sorry to have repeated it 3 times!! Many apologies.
The server was very slow to respond, and I tried 3 times before getting a "Message Received" indication.
I've removed the duplicates. No problem. And I agree that the board is slow. The whole point of the move to a new server was to fix that. I'll contact my hoster about it.
Mike Gormez
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Guest
Re: For the record
Guest wrote:There are postings by anon. These postings represent the views of no one but himself. Whoever is reading this, please note that when this person uses 'we' he is referring only to himself - not the views of anyone else.
I think you are referring here to 'nonanon', not 'anon'.
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Will Rasmussen
Last night I met with some former students of St Vedast and St James. I admired the courage they showed in coming along at all, for in the course of the evening they described the intense and long lasting anguish that they had experienced there. This gave me the opportunity to apologise wholeheartedly for the contribution I had made to their suffering, and to try to explain how this was the last thing in the world I had intended. They asked me not to give their names, and I will, of course, respect this; however, I did want to let others know of this meeting and I wish to extend to all the students of St Vedast and St James who experienced trauma or distress in any way the same fulsome apology for any part I played in this.
Wishing you all the best,
Will
Wishing you all the best,
Will
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nonanon
Re: For the record
Guest wrote:There are postings by anon. These postings represent the views of no one but himself. Whoever is reading this, please note that when this person uses 'we' he is referring only to himself - not the views of anyone else.
Ridiculous! How do you know they are not the views of anyone else? I know many former pupils who agree! Justbecause you disagree that doesn't represent everyone in the world!
Reply to Will Rasmussen
Will,
Thank you for taking the courage to post, even though I certainly don't remember you as a violent man and don't remember any abuse for which you were directly responsible.
It does indeed take courage to share experiences on these boards, and even more to go and meet those people concerned, but it also takes courage for those people to post appologies here.
There have now been 3 (ex) teachers who have done this - that in itself is very good progress. Those posts represent an extremely good example, one that I would urge the other ex-teachers to follow. As a majority of the people on here just want appologies and recognition of wrong-doing, then it would be so much easier for all concerned if the relevant teachers came forward and followed the lead of DH, BB and WR.
I for one feel that the case is closed with those that have come forward so far, and I can only speak for myself, but if everyone else followed suit then any further action would be superfluous as far as I'm concerned.
However, I am concerned that there appears to be a number of un-repentant (ex) teachers out there who really do not seem to care for this whole process. I would seriously urge those that know them and have their ear to persuade them that this is the right course of action, and to ask them to honestly evaluate their actions of 20 years ago. It is a shame, because their actions would spoil the good work done by the three mentioned above. As at least two of the current teachers are amongst those that have not come forward, it also has an extremely negative effect on the CURRENT school.
Lastly, I would like to point out that a number of the board of govenors were governors at the time, and ultimately the responsibility rests with them. I know of a number of parents that complained at the time, and whether these were "Official" complaints or not, there was certainly knowledge of the goings-on at the time.
So, please lets be totally honest about this and allow as quick and painless a process as possible. If the school chooses to try and brush this under the carpet, or indeed supports people who choose to fight it, then no-one wins, although ultimately the school has more to lose.
Alban
Thank you for taking the courage to post, even though I certainly don't remember you as a violent man and don't remember any abuse for which you were directly responsible.
It does indeed take courage to share experiences on these boards, and even more to go and meet those people concerned, but it also takes courage for those people to post appologies here.
There have now been 3 (ex) teachers who have done this - that in itself is very good progress. Those posts represent an extremely good example, one that I would urge the other ex-teachers to follow. As a majority of the people on here just want appologies and recognition of wrong-doing, then it would be so much easier for all concerned if the relevant teachers came forward and followed the lead of DH, BB and WR.
I for one feel that the case is closed with those that have come forward so far, and I can only speak for myself, but if everyone else followed suit then any further action would be superfluous as far as I'm concerned.
However, I am concerned that there appears to be a number of un-repentant (ex) teachers out there who really do not seem to care for this whole process. I would seriously urge those that know them and have their ear to persuade them that this is the right course of action, and to ask them to honestly evaluate their actions of 20 years ago. It is a shame, because their actions would spoil the good work done by the three mentioned above. As at least two of the current teachers are amongst those that have not come forward, it also has an extremely negative effect on the CURRENT school.
Lastly, I would like to point out that a number of the board of govenors were governors at the time, and ultimately the responsibility rests with them. I know of a number of parents that complained at the time, and whether these were "Official" complaints or not, there was certainly knowledge of the goings-on at the time.
So, please lets be totally honest about this and allow as quick and painless a process as possible. If the school chooses to try and brush this under the carpet, or indeed supports people who choose to fight it, then no-one wins, although ultimately the school has more to lose.
Alban
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TB
Hi Guest with some temerity,
If I correctly understand the reason you made this comparison, you feel that the passage of time might allow a new perspective from those who experienced abused at St James, just as it allowed you to do from your own school experiences? Do you think that the examples of corporal punishment are comparative between the schools? Is the experience of St James repeated across the schooling system with past students strongly affected by past events, or is St James/Vedast a unique occurence?
My own experience at school may have some relevance
If I correctly understand the reason you made this comparison, you feel that the passage of time might allow a new perspective from those who experienced abused at St James, just as it allowed you to do from your own school experiences? Do you think that the examples of corporal punishment are comparative between the schools? Is the experience of St James repeated across the schooling system with past students strongly affected by past events, or is St James/Vedast a unique occurence?
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A newish St James teacher
Worst Days Of My life
I sympathise deeply with those who are expressing their pain on this site. I also went to a school whose staffroom was a madhouse and I lived from day to day in extreme fear of physical violence or psychological torture. It has certainly been cathartic for me to post my experiences on the Freinds-reunited notice board and to speak to my old school freinds about it and even laugh. I had thought that I had put it behind me but when I started doing my teacher training all the trauma returned and I felt quite ill. Facing up to my experience in a mature way helps me to be a humane teacher. Not a day goes by when I do not put myself in the shoes of my pupils and consider what a bloody awful experience being at school can be. My posts to Freinds-reunited were removed by the site managers for legal reasons but at least I did not menace anyone with threats of revenge and plot to destroy an institution that has many happy and humane teachers and pupils. Teaching is a vocation for me and I love it. Most of the rest of the staff could say the same. Anyone who is planning direct action because their life has been ruined should first come and see the school and meet those whose education and livelihood they are about to disrupt themselves. Surely we know in these days of cnstant war that terror is no response to terror. Would you reccomend to a Palestinian that he become a suicide bomber or that he seek peace and reconcilliation? The concomitant is that those teachers involved in this shameful affair should do whatever it takes to make amends.
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