EXPERIENCES AT ST. VEDAST (now St. James) AND THE S.E.S

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:40 pm

Anonymous wrote:
Tom Grubb wrote:? Do you mean that any current teachers at St James who used to brutalise students at St Vedast have changed their ways and no longer brutalise students?


I think so....


I sincerely hope you're right!

Matthew
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http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses/messages

Postby Matthew » Wed Apr 07, 2004 11:55 am

There has been some discussion recently at http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/anti_ses/messages that is relevant to this thread.

bluelight
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Postby bluelight » Thu Apr 08, 2004 9:45 pm

I feel I should bring to your attention my own experiences at one of the establishments mentioned here. In particular comments such as,"take it with a pinch of salt".
I was unfortunate to be a pupil for a few years and my overwhelming memory is one of fear and intimidation inflicted by self named and styled "masters".
I was suffering from chronic tonsilitus whilst there and therefore singing lessons were very difficult, not to mention painful. One of the "masters" had written an opera, the first line of which was, "The self is every where,without a boady (sic), without a shape". Due to my medical problem I was unable to sing properly, for this I was ridiculed in front of the whole class. At the end of the lesson I was not allowed break and therefore a glass of water. At the next lesson (mathematics) I tried to explain that the tonsilitus made me feel very sick and that I needed a glass of water as I did not get one at breaktime due to bad singing. The "master" concerned then laughed loudly and told me, and I quote," you should learn to sing then". I never got a drink of water, nor will I ever forget that particular "master".
Another favourite punishment concerned napkins. Every pupil had to bring in a napkin to be allowed to eat the inadequate lunches supplied by the SES. Any pupil who for whatever reason did not have one was not allowed to eat.Whether or not this is an appropriate way to treat 6 year old children I will leave to readers own judgement. I have to point out many children travelled into the school from a considerable distance and therefore did not get to eat all day.
I also remember the fear that one particular teacher instilled in all of us, his love of corporal punishment, the gym shoe being a favourite, for the most minor and often perceived but not actual misdemeanor. The most intimidating factor was the sick grin on his face immediately before, during and after the beating was administered.
I also would like to state that many of the pupils in my class were victimised more than I was. I believe this was due to the fact I was quite good at boxing and they were not. They were called ,"weak","pathetic" and "second class" in front of the class as a punishment. On a darker note blatant mismatches, during boxing lessons, were often made, given the ethos of the establishment I think the reasoning behind this is clear.
Unfortunately I was not born a gifted artist and I vividly remember being struck around the left ear for poor performance during an art lesson. The blow was so hard it made my ear bleed, again, I have to ask if this is the way to treat a six or seven year old child.
The above is a small number of numerous incidents that I saw and experienced but I think that even the SES would now admit there is a case to be answered. I note that despite my earlier posting no response from the SES as an organisation or even the "masters" concerned has been forthcoming. Perhaps current pupils, or their parents, would like to bring this up with St James? I await the replies with great interest.

Matthew
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Postby Matthew » Fri Apr 09, 2004 7:57 am

The above posting appears to confirm that abuse and persecution was taking place at St James as well as St Vedast. This seems hardly surprising as many of the "teachers" were, and still are, employed in both schools. It could be argued that in some ways this situation was even worse as it involved children of an even younger and more tender age, but ultimately it was all child abuse no matter what the age.

We were just unfortunate enough to be the 100 or so kids (guinea pigs) who happened to be "in the wrong place at the wrong time"....with disastrous consequences.
Last edited by Matthew on Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adrasteia

Has the mental abuse stopped?

Postby adrasteia » Fri Apr 09, 2004 9:51 am

I recognise most people claim that St. James is different now, ie. the corporal punishment has stopped. But Tom, you mentioned on the Anti-ses site that some of the abuse was mental.
Could it be that there is still very subtle mental abuse?
The fact that most people are prepared to 'take it with a pinch of salt' indicates that they are prepared to ignore things they see as odd (which I assume are mostly features of the ses influence on the school.)
This may lead to things which should be questioned being ignored and alowed to go on.
Who encourages the 'pinch of salt' attitude? Is it those who want the Ses left unquestioned?

Tom Grubb
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Re: Has the mental abuse stopped?

Postby Tom Grubb » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:19 pm

adrasteia wrote:I recognise most people claim that St. James is different now, ie. the corporal punishment has stopped. But Tom, you mentioned on the Anti-ses site that some of the abuse was mental.
Could it be that there is still very subtle mental abuse?
The fact that most people are prepared to 'take it with a pinch of salt' indicates that they are prepared to ignore things they see as odd (which I assume are mostly features of the ses influence on the school.)
This may lead to things which should be questioned being ignored and alowed to go on.
Who encourages the 'pinch of salt' attitude? Is it those who want the Ses left unquestioned?

I'd like to point out that I am far from convinced that the current St James senior boys school is the wonderful place that some (mainly anonymous) posters have made it out to be. I am delighted that corporal punishment no longer occurs there but I strongly suspect that this is for legal rather than philosophical reasons. The fact that at least two of the sadists who physically and mentally abused me and my colleagues at St Vedast are currently working at St James does not inspire me with confidence, especially as neither of these gentlemen has, to the best of my knowledge, ever publically expressed any regret or remorse for their disgusting behaviour.

I take the assertions of apologists for the SES, St Vedast and St James with a very large pinch of salt. The people I tend to believe are those such as 'bluelight', Matthew, Dan S and Chris De Vere, since their claims accord with what I myself witnessed and experienced.

bluelight
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Postby bluelight » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:15 am

I am fully aware that despite postings that are now months old no reply has been forthcoming from the organisation involved. The most obvious question is that confronted with this type of allegation why has there been no response, or even a bare faced denial. If the SES finds my line of questioning confusing or ambiguous then I am more than happy to rephrase the question.

Given the SES motto of, "speak the truth", I have to question this intrinsic tenet of the cult. It would seem to be a somewhat hollow statement that should perhaps read, "speak the truth unless it is uncomfortable or forces one to accept responsibility for one's actions".

On a final note BB, CS, NS and ND and "masters" L and M know exactly who they are. I am sure these postings have been bought to their attention and I am forced to wonder why they do not seem to have a response. Perhaps "speak the truth unless it is uncomfortable or forces one to accept responsibility for one's actions" is actually the real situation, or even the truth. I feel the readers of these posts will decide.

I understand NS is now a jazz musician, I would be very keen to meet with him..... we could discuss the condition known as tonsilitus.

On a final note the CS reffered to above is not Clem S... ....he was ok. How such a man ended up with the SES is beyond me..... I mean the guy could actually teach!!

May justice be served.

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:21 am

I still reckon you should sue the buggers. Perhaps a class action? Now THAT would certainly get their attention AND a response from them.

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bella
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Postby bella » Tue Apr 13, 2004 8:50 am

At the risk of being dismissed as an "apologist" because of my involvement with the SOP in Australia, I do have a question/suggestion.

I have read this thread, and did a quick recap to see if I missed something, so forgive me if this has been covered and I missed it. If it's acknowledgement and explanation or apology that is required, why not make an attempt to contact the people involved directly? Tom said he planned to do this, but if he reported back, I definitely missed it. No, they may not know about these postings - perhaps it seems likely that they do, but it would be through someone else telling them about it, I suspect. That may not have happened, for whatever reason.

So before you assume that the people involved are keenly aware of the experiences and feelings being expressed here and choosing to ignore them, someone should make contact, direct them to the website, and report a response or lack thereof. Just my two cents' worth - again, apologies if this has already been dismissed as unworkable for some reason.

Alban
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Postby Alban » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:00 am

a different guest wrote:I still reckon you should sue the buggers. Perhaps a class action? Now THAT would certainly get their attention AND a response from them.


Whilst I fully agree with the sentiment (having been one of the many that suffered at the hands of the above), I feel that a class action is living in the realms of fantasy. For starters, this shit happened over 20 years ago and we have very little hard evidence to show (if any). Secondly, while we know what they were doing was highly abusive, it would be extremely difficult to prove that they were operating outside the law. Lastly, if it ever did get to court, we're just as likely to get a judge who was also beaten at one of the more eminent public schools in the 50's or 60's and who would take the attitude that we were all making a terrible fuss about nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen - I just don't think it will. I would also love to see some public apologies, but again, do you really feel you can get a leopard to change it's spots. I think not. We have to accept that there are some seriously fucked-up individuals out there and all we can do is highlight their past actions as a warning to others who may be vulnerable. By pressing for an apology, and then not getting one, we are just aggravating our own state - i.e. we just get more angry!

I feel that this is an excellent forum for unburdening ourselves and for getting support from others, but I just don't expect to get anything back from those fuckers!

Alban
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Postby Alban » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:22 am

bella wrote:...why not make an attempt to contact the people involved directly?


A couple of people have said that they have put it to certain individuals face to face in the recent past and just got brushed off. Sorry, but that absolutely concurs with my recollection of the sort of individuals they were. Another said that they were constantly blanked by Nicholas Debenham throughout entire classes, because they dared to challenge the beliefs of the SES / School - again absolutely true to character.

It is this head-in-the-sand attitude that causes me to believe that it will be a fruitless task asking for an apology. Even if we were to somehow force them to come up with an apology, I personally feel that it would be pretty damn hollow, and would not draw any solace from it.

Now I may be doing the individuals concerned a dis-service here, in assuming that they have not changed, but up until now, no evidence has been presented to me otherwise. But again, I'm not tarring everyone who was involved with the schools with the same brush. As with the SES, there were always some essentially good people and some mis-guided fanatics. Unfortunately, at the time, the latter had the balance of power - what it is like now is another matter.

Alban
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Re: Has the mental abuse stopped?

Postby Alban » Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:21 am

adrasteia wrote:...But Tom, you mentioned on the Anti-ses site that some of the abuse was mental.
Could it be that there is still very subtle mental abuse?


I made the point in an earlier post that the abuse was as a result of two states emotion. Anger was the main driving force and just showed a lack of self control, and the inability to teach. The second was sadism, which implies that pleasure was derived (by the abuser) from the abuse. This is a strong allegation, but one by which I stand. I vividly remember the look on the faces of certain individuals as "punishment" was meted out - that is a particularly difficult image to forget.

However, I was concentrating on the physical aspects of the abuse. Tom is correct in that the abuse was also mental, but I personally feel that it was not pre-meditated in the way that some of the physical abuse was. I think it stemmed more from the beliefs of the teachers, who were trying to indoctrinate the children into the beliefs of the SES. The problem came when the naturally enquiring minds of the children questioned some of the tenets that were presented as "truth". What happened then was that the teachers used every possible means available to them to try and force this acceptance, both physical and mental.

I think St Vedast could easily be compared to some of the more hard-line catholic educational establishments where the brothers and sisters would beat merry hell out of the children while insisting that they would be condemned to a life of purgatory if they deviated from the spiritual line. Whilst I don't think I ever heard the words "you will burn in hell" etc. in the context of my future direction, St V certainly used guilt as it's mental beating rod.

Anyone have any examples of some of the crap we were told. I think I personally kicked them into touch at the time and so cannot remember, but I could do with a laugh!

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a different guest
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Postby a different guest » Tue Apr 13, 2004 12:18 pm

Alban wrote:. For starters, this shit happened over 20 years ago and we have very little hard evidence to show (if any). Secondly, while we know what they were doing was highly abusive, it would be extremely difficult to prove that they were operating outside the law. Lastly, if it ever did get to court, we're just as likely to get a judge who was also beaten at one of the more eminent public schools in the 50's or 60's and who would take the attitude that we were all making a terrible fuss about nothing.
...

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see it happen - I just don't think it will.


The distance in time is not insurmountable. A woma here recently succesfully sued the education dept and her old school for bullying that occured during her high school years some years back. I think there enough victims of St Vedast to prove the claims. And of COURSE what they were doing was against the law. Even if there were NO specific laws at the time, the fact that the treatment is NOW seen as "abusive" is enough.

Do yourself a favour - speak to a lawyer.


[quote error corrected - mike]

Matthew
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Now that they're no longer twice our size....

Postby Matthew » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:06 pm

With reference to the above postings, a group of ex-pupils have already established what is so far, a positive and conciliatory dialogue with SES hierarchy and steps are currently underway to illicit an acknowledgment and apology from the 10 individuals concerned. A lot of this material has already been read and so far they are willing to at least sit down and discuss the matter. The great irony, it seems to me, is that it's the SES that's constantly preaching about "Sanskara", yet this is exactly the thing that they themselves have been guilty of - talk about hypocrisy. Yet here they have now been given this opportunity to contribute in trying to make things right again, and in their own lifetime too - seems like quite a blessing to me (We all know of their beliefs in re-incarnation etc).

I think its also important to recognise that what happened there went far beyond the realms of standard corporal punishment of the time. Rather the environment was filled with one of intimidation, persecution, and abuse. And even if say hypothetically some schools from the past were as bad as St Vedast, I fail to see how this type of defence holds any water anyway, as who's to say children didn't emerge from those establishments equally as scarred by them.

If however, an acknowledgment and apology from the 10 men is still not forthcoming then, as I said on the Yahoo site, all that will happen is this type of material on the Internet will continue to accumulate, and spread into other forms of the media, doing untold damage to St James, the SES and all their branches throughout the world. Fortunately enough of us are now sufficiently motivated and organised to make this our goal, IF we consider it necessary to do so. Contingency plans for this are already in place. As for a class action, speaking personally this would be a last resort, but is certainly not a recourse I would entirely dismiss at this point. However, I would of course give my full support to anyone wishing to instigate such an action.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
Last edited by Matthew on Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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bella
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Postby bella » Tue Apr 13, 2004 1:17 pm

Thanks for your response, Matthew. It gives us folks who are "out of the loop" a better perspective on the postings here.


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