Debenham and Caldwell in New York

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
mgormez
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Postby mgormez » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:53 pm

Bella, I understand but my thought went like this: as soon as ADG would identify the relos to the SOP, then the SOP is put in a difficult moral position. After all they would discuss their members, whom could even be close personal friends, and SOP can't tell the people in question.

That's bad spot to be in.
Mike Gormez

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Postby a different guest » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:27 pm

I don't really want to get into specifics of who or where. The issue is a sensitive one, any my relo's are very defensive about their involvement with the SOP - thus it is now never openly discussed.

One thing you said earlier Bella - about the school allowing people to go to residentials on a "pay back" plan. Could it be that my relo's not only owe a heap of money to the bank, but also be in debt to the SOP? Does the SOP also practice this "use now pay later" plan for school fees?

Another aspect I would like to explore is the notion of "class". I've mentioned this in passing in other threads. It just strikes me that "class" has a lot to do with the SES. SES membes have even said on this board things like "Greek myths are classier" than other kids stories. Shakespeare is good, but I guess Paul Jennings is bad. Mozart is good, but Einemem is bad etc etc. By cultivating what is decreed as "fine" could then be construed as elevating one's class level (this thought coming from the fact the SOP started in Britian where the class system is very much entrenched - also the addition of the Hindu elements, a society which is also heavily class structured).

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bella
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Postby bella » Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:05 am

ADG, my school does have a "use now pay later" system available for fees, so yes - it is possible that your relatives owe the SOP money for fees. To my knowledge, they don't let it get too far though. I know members who have been told they should not attend a residential until they're up to date with their course fees.

Re: class. It's easy enough for me to accept that classical music has a more beneficial effect than Eminem, because I've experienced it. Likewise finer literature versus comic books. What I have some degree of difficulty with is the sometimes seemingly arbitrary distinction between, say, Mozart and Vivaldi or Mozart and Joe Smith down the street who plays piano. Or Shakespeare and Albert Camus. I chalk it up to personal preferences and experiences at the time of the school's inception.

Mike - yes, I agree it could be delicate. Thus, when I suggested ADG could get some general information re fees and policies, I was thinking she could do it without naming names.

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Postby a different guest » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:09 am

bella wrote:Re: class. It's easy enough for me to accept that classical music has a more beneficial effect than Eminem, because I've experienced it. Likewise finer literature versus comic books. What I have some degree of difficulty with is the sometimes seemingly arbitrary distinction between, say, Mozart and Vivaldi or Mozart and Joe Smith down the street who plays piano. Or Shakespeare and Albert Camus. I chalk it up to personal preferences and experiences at the time of the school's inception.
.


Ok it was McLarens preference? Why hasn't anyone explored what is "fine" further since then? Why is Mozart "good" and Beethoven "bad"? What about other classical composers? Are there any modern composers that are "fine"?

I must admit to some degree of lack of knowledge re music - so lets talk literature. I guess you used comic books in the same vein as I used Einemen - as an extreme example. :) But aside from Shakespeare, what other literature is "fine"? Again is any modern day literature considered "fine". How many women writers are considered "fine"?

Just on Shakespeare - a friend of mine studied his works at tertiary level. I am hazy on details, but something along the lines of he didn't think much of doing the commissioned work that kept him in bread and butter - thus lines like "compare thee to a summers day" have an alternate reading. Just imagine Elizabethan London without decent sanitation on a hot summers day... In effect, Shakespeare was taking the piss! *g*

But really, isn't it a bit silly that a whole group of people are being TOLD what IS and IS NOT good literature? Doesn't "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" feature on the reading list? :)

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bella
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Postby bella » Mon Mar 22, 2004 8:57 pm

The idea is that something is more or less "fine" depending on the amount of ego that goes into producing it, and the purity of intent behind its creation. The ideal creative method for the SES is that of something akin to divine inspiration, where the writing or painting or whatever just "gets done", without a whole lot of thought on the part of the creator. It's been said that listening to the music in stillness, or falling still after reading something or looking at something, will allow you to see how much effort went into its construction. It's said that Mozart and Shakespeare are examples of this "ideal" method of artistic creation.

I can appreciate the theory behind this, but I do have trouble with some of the distinctions. As for women writers, I wouldn't really know. Shakespeare is the only writer from "modern" times, in my experience, that has been held up as an example of this kind of creation.
Last edited by bella on Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the annoyed

Postby the annoyed » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:18 pm

Is it not great and slightly comforting to read something inspiring before you go to bed, or perhaps the first thing in the morning?.... now if 'Motorcycle maintenace' be the inspiration for you........ go for it!

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bella
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Postby bella » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:41 pm

Heh. Annoyed, here's an excerpt from the blurb on "Zen & The Art..." :

Phaedrus, our narrator, takes a present-tense cross-country motorcycle trip with his son during which the maintenance of the motorcycle becomes an illustration of how we can unify the cold, rational realm of technology with the warm, imaginative realm of artistry. As in Zen, the trick is to become one with the activity, to engage in it fully, to see and appreciate all details--be it hiking in the woods, penning an essay, or tightening the chain on a motorcycle.

ADG, here's a list of library materials held by the Brisbane school:

http://www.infocentre.com.au/philosophy/library.htm

So you can get an idea of what is acceptable for the library, even if not held up as the epitome of literary creation. ;)

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Postby a different guest » Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:09 pm

Bella I think you are being too subtle with the annoyed one there - I bet you she STILL does't "geddit" ;)

The library list - most sound religiousy type books to me. Interesting that the Bronte's are there. And back to the Motorcycle Maintence book, interesting that it is NOT included. I would have thought the lengthy discourse on attempting to define "quality" would have been right up the SES's alley. :)

So is there any reading for enjoyment in the SOP? Especially for the younger kids. To me enjoying books is the key to get kids to be big readers. What sort of books do they have in the library's of the SOP primary schools?

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bella
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Postby bella » Wed Mar 24, 2004 9:06 am

ADG, I'm a huge reader. I read popular fiction like Anne Rice, Tom Robbins and Marion Zimmer Bradley, classics, as well as the more "serious" titles in the SOP library collection. It's just a library, btw - it's a collection of books that people can borrow as they like, and student donations make up the bulk of it. Reading for fun is definitely encouraged, and popular fiction isn't frowned upon as a genre - it's just suggested that you keep a balance.

I imagine if I donated "Zen & The Art", it'd stay there unmolested. ;)

Sorry, I don't know what sort of books are in the children's libraries - I would think there'd be a mix that gets vetted by the librarian, like in most schools. I'd also say there'd be a heavier preponderance of bible stories and children's stories from the Vedic tradition, though. BUt like I said, this is just speculation. Maybe one of the students from St James in the UK can be of more help than I on this topic.

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Postby a different guest » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:27 am

Zimmer Bradley? She wrote the "Mists of Avalon" and the "darkover" books didn't she? If you want some good feminist speculative fiction try Sherri S Tepper - she also puts the boot in with ideas certain religious ideas too. I think you would find her an interesting read. I was amazed to find out she's in her 60s (or 70s by now).

I've been reading up on the curricilum offered by the various SOP schools around the world. Most of the schools are only primary - seems it is only in the UK that secondary is offered. Common theme IS if course the philosophy and sanskrit. History only seems to be what I would call ancient History (the most modern they get is 19thC - and that only cos it is required for recognised exams in the UK). Geography is almost non-existant (why?). Geog is offered in junior high school at the girls school in the UK, but not at all in the boys. Girls there also do "needlework" and "art of hospitality" - boys aren't so lucky ;) (tho they CAN do "hospitality" as a short course in the holidays). Dead languages (Latin/greek) and EVERY school, while mentioned studying the great men and WOMEN (my emphasis) can generally only come up with 3 (all male) names - Mozart, Shakespeare and Michelangelo.

Does ANYTHING they admire exist in the 20thC??? :)

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Postby a different guest » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:52 am

Just a tad more re Shakespear - found this "article" at the Sydney schools site. Some excerpts...

"It is the glory of the English speaking culture that it has contributed to civilisation through words, poetry and literature. And the pinnacle of this contribution is Shakespeare. Shakespeare connects the children to their cultural heritage, and equips them, in time, to make their own contribution"

I guess Britannia STILL rules the waves. What about all the other cultures with fantastic "words, petry and literature"? Well yes there were the greeeks, but they've obviously not zilch for a couple of thousand years. But then again, if Shakespeare is the "pinnacle" for the english speaking world, we've not acheived much in the last 500 either!

"provision of the finest gives the children a point of discrimination. If they know the best then when they meet anything else they can make a rational choice. If they can read and value the language and the message of Shakespeare then, when they meet texts of an inferior nature, they will be able to recognise this and choose accordingly. "

What a bloody wank!

"It could be said that Shakespeare is part of our drug education programme."

*rolls eyes*

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bella
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Postby bella » Wed Mar 24, 2004 12:06 pm

Thanks - I've read a few Tepper books, including "Gate To Women's Country", but prefer Bradley.

I didn't study geography in primary school either - unless you count what was taught in Social Studies class; I don't think that's really a valid point of contention. It is when we're talking about high school, though.

No comment on your dislike of Shakespeare. ;)

Misty

Postby Misty » Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:32 pm

WHen I was younger I hated the fact that my school had such a limited range of subjects. I asked my teacher why we had ONLY english, unlike other schools which had Media Studies too...

She replied saything. IF you can write a character study from one of Shakespeare's play, then you can write a character study on any soap or film on television.

In a way I see her point quite well.

Opinions of Shakespeare differ from person to person. If you think SHakespeare was nothing special, no one can say you're wrong as what you say is an opinion, and an opinion is always right. Just as anyone who think's Shakespeare's writing is amazing, that too is their view, and must also be respected.

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Postby a different guest » Wed Mar 24, 2004 11:02 pm

bella wrote:Thanks - I've read a few Tepper books, including "Gate To Women's Country", but prefer Bradley.

I didn't study geography in primary school either - unless you count what was taught in Social Studies class; I don't think that's really a valid point of contention. It is when we're talking about high school, though.

No comment on your dislike of Shakespeare. ;)


Have you read the semi linked books to do with the Hobbs Land Gods?

Regarding geography, I AM talking high school. It is offered at ST James girls in the junior high years, and not at all at the boys school.

And I don't dislike Shakespeare - in fact I quite enjoy his works. The comedys anyway. He could write some darned good one liners. *g*

Misty "media studies" has nothing to do with storytelling. It is about understanding how the media works, how and why they report things, the political and economic influences etc etc. it can be a real eye opener when you know a bit about the media. A simple exercise. If you have cable watch BBC news (I am assuming you are in the UK) and then watch Fox news and see for yourself the difference. You might like to read up on the BBC charter and read up on Rupert Murdoch. Then think how inlfuential news media can be in forming opinions as people form their opinions from the information they have to hand.

And back on storytelling - yes their is almost a formula for it. Disney movies use it all the time *sigh*.

Misty

Postby Misty » Thu Mar 25, 2004 11:19 pm

Regarding geography, I AM talking high school. It is offered at ST James girls in the junior high years, and not at all at the boys school.


The St james girls school will have a geography A level teacher from next september due to the increasing interest of girls wanting to study geography at a level.

I am sure if the boys too kicked up a a slight fuss (or mentioned) wanting to study geography at any level through the acedemic year they too will get a geography teacher.

Seeing as the school rely on fund rasing events aswell as school fees from the parents they aren't excessivly rich, therefore having a geography teacher at a school which does not show much interest in geography is not very logical.

One needs to voice their interest and opinion so that they may be heard by others.


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