I am a former pupil of St James and I've had nothing to do with the school and its sister organisations since I left. That's been a deliberate policy to get over the bad times and move on.
As a strategy of getting over the trauma, it is largely successful. I can't say it has allowed me to forget completely all the abuses and lost opportunities suffered as a result of the ridiculous theories of McLaren, his mini-me clone Debenham and the rest of the misguided crew, but I feel I have closed that ugly chapter and am now enjoying life to the full.
When I came across this forum I found that it brought back many bad memories, and even a couple of nightmares. So it makes me wonder whether the catharsis that some contributors to this forum probably seek by discussing their experiences is unlikely to be achieved. Instead, doesn't it just going to stir up renewed grief and bitterness?
I'd be interested to see what other people think.
Does this forum help you get over the experience?
Hi Daffy!
Like you, I have had bad memories stirred up by this forum. Like you, I have had unpleasant dreams since first visiting this forum. But I can also unequivocally say that discovering, reading and contributing to this forum has been one of the most positive, cathartic and useful experiences of my life.
What I experienced and witnessed at St Vedast has affected me enormously. Over the years, I?ve learnt to cope with, and largely overcome, the legacy of that dreadful place. I certainly don?t let it control me, as I used to. But I would be lying if I said that I was completely ?over? the experience. For that to happen, this fact would need to change: NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ABUSED ME OR MY COLLEAGUES AT ST VEDAST?S HAS EVER APOLOGIESD FOR OR EVEN ACKNOWLEDGED THEIR ACTIONS.
One observation: I notice that since you ?came across? this forum, rather than swiftly returning to the nearly 100% of the Internet?s content that has nothing to do with the SES or its schools, you have not only read several of the posts here but have also started your own thread! I hope you?ll stick around and, if you feel ready, consider posting your experiences at St James. Welcome!
Tom
Like you, I have had bad memories stirred up by this forum. Like you, I have had unpleasant dreams since first visiting this forum. But I can also unequivocally say that discovering, reading and contributing to this forum has been one of the most positive, cathartic and useful experiences of my life.
What I experienced and witnessed at St Vedast has affected me enormously. Over the years, I?ve learnt to cope with, and largely overcome, the legacy of that dreadful place. I certainly don?t let it control me, as I used to. But I would be lying if I said that I was completely ?over? the experience. For that to happen, this fact would need to change: NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ABUSED ME OR MY COLLEAGUES AT ST VEDAST?S HAS EVER APOLOGIESD FOR OR EVEN ACKNOWLEDGED THEIR ACTIONS.
One observation: I notice that since you ?came across? this forum, rather than swiftly returning to the nearly 100% of the Internet?s content that has nothing to do with the SES or its schools, you have not only read several of the posts here but have also started your own thread! I hope you?ll stick around and, if you feel ready, consider posting your experiences at St James. Welcome!
Tom
Every time I come back here and read this stuff I go away reeling.
I remember getting up before dawn and meditating in the stillness of the sunrise and the first birdsong. I remember the inhuman cold stupidity of some of the disciplines. I remember being manipulated in my young and inexperienced vulnerability. I remember the beauty of chanted Sanskrit. One of the people who has been mentioned here by name as a sadistic mistreater of children, I remember as the charmingly eccentric father of good friends of mine.
Surely The School of the Fourth Way, in direct contact with a living Perfect Master, must be perfect in itself? Incapable of doing harm, producing only life-affirming effects? "By their fruits shall ye know them."
If the fruits are tragedy and traumatised youth, is not the whole thing to be rejected as yet another cult, on a par with UFO worshippers and Japanese murder-sects? But what about those moments of pure, still joy? What about the Exercise, the Meditation, Resting in the awareness of the presence of Myself?
It always throws me back to myself. SES was what I made it. The whole world is what I make it. There is a very uncomfortable realisation stirring in me that the only meaning in anything at all comes from myself. The only morality is my morality. There is no right and wrong outside of my own, personal judgement.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being".
CG Jung
Reading and writing here mixes up my head every time. I could just go away and "forget" it all, but that would just be suppressing all the interesting questions which I'm forced to think about when reading these posts. I think it's helping me to grow up at last.
Peace
Meikl
I remember getting up before dawn and meditating in the stillness of the sunrise and the first birdsong. I remember the inhuman cold stupidity of some of the disciplines. I remember being manipulated in my young and inexperienced vulnerability. I remember the beauty of chanted Sanskrit. One of the people who has been mentioned here by name as a sadistic mistreater of children, I remember as the charmingly eccentric father of good friends of mine.
Surely The School of the Fourth Way, in direct contact with a living Perfect Master, must be perfect in itself? Incapable of doing harm, producing only life-affirming effects? "By their fruits shall ye know them."
If the fruits are tragedy and traumatised youth, is not the whole thing to be rejected as yet another cult, on a par with UFO worshippers and Japanese murder-sects? But what about those moments of pure, still joy? What about the Exercise, the Meditation, Resting in the awareness of the presence of Myself?
It always throws me back to myself. SES was what I made it. The whole world is what I make it. There is a very uncomfortable realisation stirring in me that the only meaning in anything at all comes from myself. The only morality is my morality. There is no right and wrong outside of my own, personal judgement.
"As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being".
CG Jung
Reading and writing here mixes up my head every time. I could just go away and "forget" it all, but that would just be suppressing all the interesting questions which I'm forced to think about when reading these posts. I think it's helping me to grow up at last.
Peace
Meikl
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Abel Holzing
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:51 pm
Dear Meikl
Thank you for your post and especially for speaking from the heart. Most current students (such as myself) and past students at the SES probably can relate to your "spinning head / emotions", brought about by that mixture of positive and negative experiences.
Your positive experiences appear to be:
Your negative ones:
You conclude that:
I feel this is what many students in the school may have relied upon, perhaps with the encouragement of their tutors, who in turn may have been encouraged by the leaders of the school to present the "teaching" in those terms. This seems the equivalent of the infallibility dogma of the Roman Catholic Church - and we all know what harm it has done in the course of its history. The fact that you have direct contact with a Living Master (assuming that this is the case here) does not necessarily mean you understand and live his teaching to the full; you are only infallible if - and to the extent to which - you do.
I think you need to distinguish between sects and cults whose ideology itself is bankrupt, and organisations that have a sound philosophical teaching but fail to live up to it (i.e. are capable of "redemption").
And yes, ultimately:
So what does all this boil down to?
I think that's it - the main tools in the "pursuit of truth" are your OWN vision of truth, developed and refined by personal judgement, your critical faculties and lots of scepticism. These you must never surrender, ESPECIALLY NOT in respect of any teaching that influences you in the development of your core beliefs.
Thank you for your post and especially for speaking from the heart. Most current students (such as myself) and past students at the SES probably can relate to your "spinning head / emotions", brought about by that mixture of positive and negative experiences.
Your positive experiences appear to be:
Meikl wrote: I remember getting up before dawn and meditating in the stillness of the sunrise and the first birdsong ... I remember the beauty of chanted Sanskrit ... One of the people who has been mentioned here by name as a sadistic mistreater of children, I remember as the charmingly eccentric father of good friends of mine ... what about those moments of pure, still joy? What about the Exercise, the Meditation, Resting in the awareness of the presence of Myself?
Your negative ones:
I remember the inhuman cold stupidity of some of the disciplines ... I remember being manipulated in my young and inexperienced vulnerability.
You conclude that:
Surely The School of the Fourth Way, in direct contact with a living Perfect Master, must be perfect in itself? Incapable of doing harm, producing only life-affirming effects?
I feel this is what many students in the school may have relied upon, perhaps with the encouragement of their tutors, who in turn may have been encouraged by the leaders of the school to present the "teaching" in those terms. This seems the equivalent of the infallibility dogma of the Roman Catholic Church - and we all know what harm it has done in the course of its history. The fact that you have direct contact with a Living Master (assuming that this is the case here) does not necessarily mean you understand and live his teaching to the full; you are only infallible if - and to the extent to which - you do.
If the fruits are tragedy and traumatised youth, is not the whole thing to be rejected as yet another cult, on a par with UFO worshippers and Japanese murder-sects?
I think you need to distinguish between sects and cults whose ideology itself is bankrupt, and organisations that have a sound philosophical teaching but fail to live up to it (i.e. are capable of "redemption").
And yes, ultimately:
"By their fruits shall ye know them."
So what does all this boil down to?
It always throws me back to myself. SES was what I made it. The whole world is what I make it. There is a very uncomfortable realisation stirring in me that the only meaning in anything at all comes from myself. The only morality is my morality. There is no right and wrong outside of my own, personal judgement.
I think that's it - the main tools in the "pursuit of truth" are your OWN vision of truth, developed and refined by personal judgement, your critical faculties and lots of scepticism. These you must never surrender, ESPECIALLY NOT in respect of any teaching that influences you in the development of your core beliefs.
Hi Abel,
thanks for your thoughts, if the following sounds a bit depressive it`s `cos it`s late and I`ve got a cold and my band`s playing concert`s without me.
My core beliefs? Are shattered. All shields are down. There is no barrier against the Void. I spin amongst the lifeless electromagnetic pulses of the stars, encapsulated in the one lonely certainty that I exist for a little while.
At the same time
"I`m tethered to the logic of Homo Sapiens.
Can`t take my eyes off the Great Salvation
Of bullshit faith." (David Bowie)
Human condition.Uncertainty.
Erik the Buddhist wrote "But the essence of Vedanta is that it can not fully be grasped by reasoning alone - emotions and experience also need to come into the area. It is a bit like the Sattva-Rajas-Tamas trinity inside their theory - only from thinking one won't come there"
Thanks Erik, I like that. That works well for me. "Sinking in the quicksand of my thoughts" I am. Time to go to bed.
Peace
Meikl
thanks for your thoughts, if the following sounds a bit depressive it`s `cos it`s late and I`ve got a cold and my band`s playing concert`s without me.
Abel Holzing wrote: the main tools in the "pursuit of truth" are your OWN vision of truth, developed and refined by personal judgement, your critical faculties and lots of scepticism. These you must never surrender, ESPECIALLY NOT in respect of any teaching that influences you in the development of your core beliefs.
My core beliefs? Are shattered. All shields are down. There is no barrier against the Void. I spin amongst the lifeless electromagnetic pulses of the stars, encapsulated in the one lonely certainty that I exist for a little while.
At the same time
"I`m tethered to the logic of Homo Sapiens.
Can`t take my eyes off the Great Salvation
Of bullshit faith." (David Bowie)
Human condition.Uncertainty.
Erik the Buddhist wrote "But the essence of Vedanta is that it can not fully be grasped by reasoning alone - emotions and experience also need to come into the area. It is a bit like the Sattva-Rajas-Tamas trinity inside their theory - only from thinking one won't come there"
Thanks Erik, I like that. That works well for me. "Sinking in the quicksand of my thoughts" I am. Time to go to bed.
Peace
Meikl
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Daffy
Meikl/Abel, this thread is about whether this website helps former child pupils of St James and St Vedast get over the trauma, not about the experiences of consenting adult members of the SES who are free to leave at any time.
If you have not been a prisoner of the children's schools the way Tom Grubb and I have both been, what qualifies you to contribute to this topic?
If you have not been a prisoner of the children's schools the way Tom Grubb and I have both been, what qualifies you to contribute to this topic?
Ouch!Daffy wrote:Meikl/Abel, this thread is about whether this website helps former child pupils of St James and St Vedast get over the trauma, not about the experiences of consenting adult members of the SES who are free to leave at any time.
If you have not been a prisoner of the children's schools the way Tom Grubb and I have both been, what qualifies you to contribute to this topic?
It wasn`t clear to me that you were only talking to pupils at the children`s schools. Your question appeared to speak directly to me and the things I have been wondering about since I started reading this forum. My seven years in SES and my subsequent exit were traumatic in the extreme. The effects are still with me now, more than twenty years later. Like you I was wondering if this forum was doing me more harm than good. Formulating my answers to your question has helped me to straighten up my own position a little, I had also hoped my posts might have been of use to you.
My replies have been open, friendly and well meant. The tone of your last post was therefore surprisingly hard. I would have taken a polite and friendly hint.
Peace
Meikl
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Abel Holzing
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:51 pm
Daffy wrote:Meikl/Abel, this thread is about whether this website helps former child pupils of St James and St Vedast get over the trauma, not about the experiences of consenting adult members of the SES who are free to leave at any time. If you have not been a prisoner of the children's schools the way Tom Grubb and I have both been, what qualifies you to contribute to this topic?
This forum has as its general topic 'General Discusssion on SES', and your thread is entitled 'Does This Forum Help You Get Over The Experience' - so one can be forgiven for assuming that it is all about the 'SES experience'. Even if you had limited the topic to the 'St James / St Vedast experience', someone who has not been to the day schools can still be qualified to contribute, in the form of questions, suggestions, drawing parallels to similar experiences in one's own life, drawing on experiences of friends and acquaintances at St James / St Vedast, etc etc. If you feel a contribution missed the point of the thread, then, in turn, you are of course free to challenge the contributor.
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TB
Hallo Abel Holzing,
I have a question/comment regarding your comment to Meikl
Does this lead one toward a truth that is then only applicable to yourself, and if so does it differ from just having opinions on things, and from the posts on this forum we all have these? If you feel we should not surrender our core beliefs to any teaching that might influence their development, then how do we get these beliefs? Our parents, peers, the education and legal systems, media, etc. are these not responsible for forming our 'core beliefs', and in their own way operate like the SES, perhaps with different intentions? If not this way, are we perhaps born with genetic inheritance with our core beliefs already hardcoded? If neither of these two mechanisms are responsible, how about divine grace?
I have a question/comment regarding your comment to Meikl
I think that's it - the main tools in the "pursuit of truth" are your OWN vision of truth, developed and refined by personal judgement, your critical faculties and lots of scepticism. These you must never surrender, ESPECIALLY NOT in respect of any teaching that influences you in the development of your core beliefs
Does this lead one toward a truth that is then only applicable to yourself, and if so does it differ from just having opinions on things, and from the posts on this forum we all have these? If you feel we should not surrender our core beliefs to any teaching that might influence their development, then how do we get these beliefs? Our parents, peers, the education and legal systems, media, etc. are these not responsible for forming our 'core beliefs', and in their own way operate like the SES, perhaps with different intentions? If not this way, are we perhaps born with genetic inheritance with our core beliefs already hardcoded? If neither of these two mechanisms are responsible, how about divine grace?
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TB
Hallo Daffy,
I would like to understand better your motivation for the comment below
It seems you think that 'consenting adult members' of the SES should not discuss their own experiences nor comment about yours or Tom Grubbs, unless they attended St James. Your original post on this site did not indicate that only past school pupils were eligible to respond
You seem ambivalent at best, toward the forum objectives
With expectations like this what contribution can we offer? I cannot place myself in your shoes as a student from St James, just as you cannot with my adult SES experiences. What we can both do, is discuss our experiences and judgements, and also question each other to see if we can relate. As an adult member of SES I learnt some valuable lessons, although ultimately we parted because of irreconcilable differences. One our most striking features as human beings is our social organisation. Our need to communication is empowered by the internet and we are able to transcend time and goegraphy and link to others who have experience of SES and its affiliates. Some posters are ex St James and others, some are are current members, some are past members with interest but no axes to grind, and some are probably just curious surfers. I have benefitted from the past few months of discussion from other posters and learnt much about the SES and particularly St James.
I would be interested to learn more about your experiences (as I am sure others are), and will very likely comment and question. If this is something you are not comfortable with, I will try to respect that.
I would like to understand better your motivation for the comment below
Meikl/Abel, this thread is about whether this website helps former child pupils of St James and St Vedast get over the trauma, not about the experiences of consenting adult members of the SES who are free to leave at any time.
If you have not been a prisoner of the children's schools the way Tom Grubb and I have both been, what qualifies you to contribute to this topic?
It seems you think that 'consenting adult members' of the SES should not discuss their own experiences nor comment about yours or Tom Grubbs, unless they attended St James. Your original post on this site did not indicate that only past school pupils were eligible to respond
I'd be interested to see what other people think.
You seem ambivalent at best, toward the forum objectives
So it makes me wonder whether the catharsis that some contributors to this forum probably seek by discussing their experiences is unlikely to be achieved. Instead, doesn't it just going to stir up renewed grief and bitterness?
With expectations like this what contribution can we offer? I cannot place myself in your shoes as a student from St James, just as you cannot with my adult SES experiences. What we can both do, is discuss our experiences and judgements, and also question each other to see if we can relate. As an adult member of SES I learnt some valuable lessons, although ultimately we parted because of irreconcilable differences. One our most striking features as human beings is our social organisation. Our need to communication is empowered by the internet and we are able to transcend time and goegraphy and link to others who have experience of SES and its affiliates. Some posters are ex St James and others, some are are current members, some are past members with interest but no axes to grind, and some are probably just curious surfers. I have benefitted from the past few months of discussion from other posters and learnt much about the SES and particularly St James.
I would be interested to learn more about your experiences (as I am sure others are), and will very likely comment and question. If this is something you are not comfortable with, I will try to respect that.
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Daffy
I apologise for implying - as a result of my frustration explained below - that your comments were not welcome unless you had been a pupil of the children's schools. You are right, this is not a thread limited to just former children of those schools.
My frustration is this: I started this thread asking a specific and apparently simple question whether these forums helped you get over the experience of the schools. I believe that some of you have gone off on various weird and wonderful tangents that have nothing to do with this topic.
In your own way you may think that you are contributing to this discussion. To me however, it is frankly an insult to the years of suffering I and others experienced to think that David Bowie and 'Erik and Buddhist' (whoever he is) have something useful to say on getting over the pain of an abusive childhood. It is frivolous to suggest that our experiences are just what we make of them. No doubt you didn't intend these perceptions, but that is how it has come across to me.
I must confess also that your collective writing styles make me very uncomfortable. The use of diverse quotes from sundry mystics taken out of context to prove a point, argued in a Plato leading-question-and-answer format, is exactly the style of the SES material that I rejected so utterly.
You are probably reeling again from the chasm of misunderstanding that exists here. I can see you are thoughtful people who look for reason behind discord. You have gone off on what I call tangents because you genuinely believe you are making a useful contribution to this subject. I myself intended a more down-to-earth, less spiritual discourse about whether shared experiences help or hinder the healing process. None of us is necessarily right - I started this thread but I don't own it.
Reading your posts and writing this reply reminds me of why I had decided not to engage in these kinds of conversations. I am not a spiritual person, I don't believe in God, I don't seek a fundamental meaning and purpose to life. I have no more spiritual a connection with the SES than a motor car colliding with a pedestrian.
You on the other hand see life on a more ethereal level. These conversations continue a philosophical journey that you temporarily took with the SES and wish to continue. I can't even begin to tune into your wavelength, and nor can you hope to tune into mine.
I return to my main question - whether this forum helps people get over their experiences. It does not seem to have helped me get over mine. The discussion has stirred up old angers and old memories that I didn't wish to bring to the boil again. What I had intended as a reflection on the old adage "A problem shared ..." has become something else, and made me angry and disappointed in the process.
For me, healing is about forgetting, not looking for reason in the unreasonable. For that reason I don't think I should participate in these worthy forums.
My frustration is this: I started this thread asking a specific and apparently simple question whether these forums helped you get over the experience of the schools. I believe that some of you have gone off on various weird and wonderful tangents that have nothing to do with this topic.
In your own way you may think that you are contributing to this discussion. To me however, it is frankly an insult to the years of suffering I and others experienced to think that David Bowie and 'Erik and Buddhist' (whoever he is) have something useful to say on getting over the pain of an abusive childhood. It is frivolous to suggest that our experiences are just what we make of them. No doubt you didn't intend these perceptions, but that is how it has come across to me.
I must confess also that your collective writing styles make me very uncomfortable. The use of diverse quotes from sundry mystics taken out of context to prove a point, argued in a Plato leading-question-and-answer format, is exactly the style of the SES material that I rejected so utterly.
You are probably reeling again from the chasm of misunderstanding that exists here. I can see you are thoughtful people who look for reason behind discord. You have gone off on what I call tangents because you genuinely believe you are making a useful contribution to this subject. I myself intended a more down-to-earth, less spiritual discourse about whether shared experiences help or hinder the healing process. None of us is necessarily right - I started this thread but I don't own it.
Reading your posts and writing this reply reminds me of why I had decided not to engage in these kinds of conversations. I am not a spiritual person, I don't believe in God, I don't seek a fundamental meaning and purpose to life. I have no more spiritual a connection with the SES than a motor car colliding with a pedestrian.
You on the other hand see life on a more ethereal level. These conversations continue a philosophical journey that you temporarily took with the SES and wish to continue. I can't even begin to tune into your wavelength, and nor can you hope to tune into mine.
I return to my main question - whether this forum helps people get over their experiences. It does not seem to have helped me get over mine. The discussion has stirred up old angers and old memories that I didn't wish to bring to the boil again. What I had intended as a reflection on the old adage "A problem shared ..." has become something else, and made me angry and disappointed in the process.
For me, healing is about forgetting, not looking for reason in the unreasonable. For that reason I don't think I should participate in these worthy forums.
Hi Daffy,
I hope that doesn`t mean you`re going to disappear before I have chance to say this to you.
I absolutely did not mean to insult or belittle your pain and anger in any way at all. If I appeared to be flippant, it`s just my style, or lack of it. I was trying to illustrate the confusion I still feel with respect to the Philosophy, and the way in which this forum seems to be helping me to get my ideas straight.
You said - "These conversations continue a philosophical journey that you temporarily took with the SES and wish to continue". Thank you for that, it gives me one or two things to think about.
Whether you decide to leave this forum or not, please accept my good wishes for the future. I hope you find what you need.
Peace
Meikl
I hope that doesn`t mean you`re going to disappear before I have chance to say this to you.
I absolutely did not mean to insult or belittle your pain and anger in any way at all. If I appeared to be flippant, it`s just my style, or lack of it. I was trying to illustrate the confusion I still feel with respect to the Philosophy, and the way in which this forum seems to be helping me to get my ideas straight.
You said - "These conversations continue a philosophical journey that you temporarily took with the SES and wish to continue". Thank you for that, it gives me one or two things to think about.
Whether you decide to leave this forum or not, please accept my good wishes for the future. I hope you find what you need.
Peace
Meikl
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TB
Hallo Daffy,
I add my good wishes for your future to those from Meikl, if you decide to leave the forum. Although we do not have your insight of direct experiences at St James, there is a kinship and understanding on this forum regarding SES/SoP that you are unlikely to find elsewhere. Your last post gave the best impression who you are, and I related to much of what you said. Do not be fooled by high sounding language and smart quotations from myself and others, our day to day thoughts are probably similar to yours. Your response prompted some questions that I will not ask as you do not wish to continue here, but your postings stirred up people and made us think. Your analogy
Good luck, you know where to find us.
I add my good wishes for your future to those from Meikl, if you decide to leave the forum. Although we do not have your insight of direct experiences at St James, there is a kinship and understanding on this forum regarding SES/SoP that you are unlikely to find elsewhere. Your last post gave the best impression who you are, and I related to much of what you said. Do not be fooled by high sounding language and smart quotations from myself and others, our day to day thoughts are probably similar to yours. Your response prompted some questions that I will not ask as you do not wish to continue here, but your postings stirred up people and made us think. Your analogy
I will not forget in a hurry.I have no more spiritual a connection with the SES than a motor car colliding with a pedestrian
Good luck, you know where to find us.
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Antises
I express my greatest support for Daffy in his down-to-earth approach. The talk in this forum reminds me of the marvellous Postmodernist generator which churns out eloquent prose, complete with quotations, but means nothing. Yes, you may all understand what you're on about with your quotes, but to most other people it has little meaning. Many people may visit and attempt to understand this forum, and many will leave it due to the constant need for over-analysis when a general down-to-earth view would suffice.
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TB
I agree with Antises' view that quotations are overused, or used wrongly by many. Its much the same process when we apply labels to ideas and behaviour without fully understanding its meaning. Add flowery language, long wordy sentences and its no wonder we misunderstand each other and have endless debates.
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