Dear All

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
Jerome Webb

Dear All

Postby Jerome Webb » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:46 am

I have been forwarded a link to this board from a concerned friend. I am for those of you who do not know, the current chairman of the old boys and old girls of St James and St Vedast schools, known in short as Seventh Form.

I have, over the many years I have acted as chairman, had conversations from time to time with both old boys and girls who have a negative residue from their school days. I did too.

I however, dealt with it the best way I knew how, and that was to feed my experiences gently and rationally back into the school.

This approach has been adopted by others and has proved successful by the fantastic schools that now exist and by the fact that many ex-pupils, some the contemporaries of the main contributors to this board, now send their own children to the schools and some even teach there too. What better way to make a change for the better?

I know that for the girls much of this reconciliation has only been possible because of the totally open invitation extended to them by Laura Hyde, the headmistress of the girls senior school, to meet, listen, discuss and find resolutions. I know that David Boddy also wishes to extend such an invitation, as the new headmaster of the boys? senior school. Both David and Laura are concerned that some former pupils have strong negative impressions from school so long after leaving, and as a first step to bringing these ghosts to rest, offer this open meeting to listen to all that you have to say.

Please take them up on this. I know that for the girls, dealing with this issue in such a way has been very useful and effective. People have also found visiting the schools, both junior and senior, anonymously in some cases, very useful. They have been able to see what has grown from the seed our parents planted, in good faith and with the best of intentions.

Take courage and good luck. I feel for you all.

Jerome



To contact Laura Hyde please phone the Olympia reception on 0207-348-1777 and ask for Sue Allan or you can email Laura directly at l.hyde@stjamessengirls.org.uk but please leave your phone number so Laura can call you back to arrange a good time to meet.

To contact David Boddy please call the school reception at Popes Villa on 0208-892-2002. As David has not yet officially started (Sep 04) he has no email at St James yet.

I guess that as it is school holidays the reception will generally be closed but just leave a message or keep trying.

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:41 pm

Mr Webb,

Should I ever have children, let me assure you that I shall most definitely not be sending them to any of the schools run by your sick cult, however "fantastic" these schools may now allegedly be.

Rather than dwell upon "what has grown from the seed our parents planted, in good faith and with the best of intentions", perhaps I could ask you for your opinion on why, in order for these fragrant blooms to grow, it was apparently necessary for so many children to be punched, kicked, caned literally hundreds of times, beaten with ropes, rulers, cricket bats and gym shoes, struck with various missiles and verbally humiliated? Not to mention deprived of sleep, taught by unqualified teachers and indoctrinated with a 'philosophy' the questioning of which could lead to further abuse.

I see that you are eager for reconciliation. I welcome this. But in order for there to be reconciliation, there first needs to be truth. I seem to remember the telling of the truth as being central to SES philosophy. Mr Webb, what you are seeing on this forum is just the tip of a very large iceberg. Many former pupils are still too traumatised to post their testimonies here. Are we all lying? If not, where are the admissions that what we are saying is true? And where are the apologies?

We are waiting....

Antises

Postby Antises » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:37 pm

Tom Grubb, you've made your point 95 times. If an effective and meaningful apology is truly what you seek, this can only realistically be achieved by face-to-face meetings. This is exactly what Laura Hyde and David Boddy offer. Jerome Webb is trying to facilitate this by posting in this forum. He has not attempted to justify the suffering of old boys and girls, and he certainly does not deserve your criticism. Everyone being too traumatised to go back to school is a red herring. I don't know your intentions, but I'm pretty sure everyone's become tired of your posts. Do yourself a favour and retire before your century.

Alban
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Postby Alban » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:22 pm

Antises - if you'd care to read this board, you'd know that there are a number of people (of which Tom is one) that are currently in talks with David Boddy and Nicholas Debenham. However, Tom is quite right to be questioning Jerome Webb's blatant avoidance of the behaviour that was the basis on which these schools were built.

As for Mr Webb and the 7th Form, I would just like to ask exactly how much funding they receive from the schools, and whether this has anything to do with his pro-schools stance?

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Mon Aug 09, 2004 7:36 pm

Hi Antises,

What makes you think I haven't already had face-to-face meetings with SES people (including one mentioned in your post) regarding the abuse dished out at their schools? If David Boddy, Laura Hyde or Jerome Webb wish to facilitate future meetings, that's fine by me but it's really not them I'm interested in seeing. The people I want to see are the ones who actually carried out the abuse. Any apology, justification or acknowledgement from David, Laura or Jerome would be essentially meaningless. But if the likes of Debenham, Russell, Barber, Farndell, Howell, Southwell, etc. are going to be there, then so will I.

As for your "red herring", I have indeed been informed by several survivors that meeting teachers from their former school would be too traumatic for them at this stage. Please consider how these survivors must feel if the allegations appearing on the 'Experiences at St Vedast....' thread are in fact true, rather than the fantasies that certain SES folks would like to pretend.

Sorry to disappoint you, Antises, but I'm not going away!

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Postby a different guest » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:01 am

Antises - I do not see that the current principals are offering an "effective and meaningful apology" at all! What they are doing is obviously little more than damage control.

Read Jerome's post again - it is a pile of patronising claptrap.

I quote "I however, dealt with it the best way I knew how, and that was to feed my experiences gently and rationally back into the school." Basically his post is a putdown of people like Tom. Only people like himself who "gently and rationally" fed experiences back to the school were the ones able to make changes within the school for the better.

It's a right double backhander - Jerome is stating that if these victims were more superior human beings they could have used their experiences for the greater good, therfore also BLAMING the victims of abuse for any continued abuse.

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Postby Goblinboy » Tue Aug 10, 2004 12:30 am

Antises wrote:...I'm pretty sure everyone's become tired of your posts.


Guess again, Antises.

Jerome Webb's post appears to be a clumsy attempt at damage control. As such, it's quite amusing. It doesn't just miss its objective, it pours fuel on the fire.

The posting has an air of "we know what's best for you" (not an uncommon position for the SES to take, wouldn't you agree?), while belittling Tom and his peers' concerns and attempting to divert those concerned towards people who do not appear to have any useful connection with the perpetrators of the abuse. Little wonder it attracted a sharp response.

And the name of Webb's organisation is telling. "The Seventh Form" reflects the SES's abiding concern with hierarchy as well as implying that you never really leave the school.

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Postby a different guest » Tue Aug 10, 2004 2:55 am

Yes GB - very clumsy. Amusing? Well I guess there IS a degree of black humour that a supposedly educated and thoughtful person would describe the feelings a victim who suffered years of physical and mental ciild abuse as "negative residue".

Daffy

Postby Daffy » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:47 am

I think we have to assume that the offer made by Jerome on behalf of Boddy and Hyde is one made in good faith. It purports to be an attempt at reconciliation by the current management, which, so far as it goes, can't do any harm.

However, I think the offer misses the point, well made by Tom Grubb: those who suffered at the hands of Debenham, Caldwell and all their underlings are not interested in any form of reconciliation unless the real guilty parties first acknowledge their errors and give a full, public apology.

I understand that Debenham has rejected an attempt to persuade him to admit that he might have overstepped the boundaries of acceptable behaviour, instead choosing to justify his conduct and even insult the victims. Perhaps we should regard him as a lost cause and consign him to the dustbin of history. Or perhaps we should prevail on those with potentially more influence on him, such as Boddy, Hyde and Webb, to pressure him to face up to his past.

Personally I feel nothing is to be gained by having any contact with Debenham. He is just too implicated in what would be regarded today as serious criminal acts, and in some cases indecent acts. Hard though it is to believe, he might actually think he did nothing wrong. You can't teach an old dog new tricks, and you can't get an old teacher to admit he was a dog. So let's not waste any more emotion on pursuing a criminal who walks free.

Let's instead give the current, hopefully more enlightened regime an opportunity to take responsibility for what happened in their organisation's name and face up to the past. But there's the rub. Does today's St James acknowledge that numerous acts of cruelty were committed by its teachers in the 1970s, 80s and 90s? Or will it merely regard them as "negative residue"?

Without truth there can be no reconciliation. Nelson Mandela recognised this when he set up the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa after the apartheid era. We had to wait for a new South Africa to face up to its old past, and we can only hope that a new St James will do the same. Unfortunately we have no prospect of a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for St James and St Vedast because we can't force Debenham and his co-accused out of the Victorian time warp they established for themselves. However I'd like to think that, as a first step on the road to reconciliation, the current management of the school might admit what went on in the school's name and apologise for it.

Jerome, I don't doubt your sincerity, and with no knowledge of the particular individuals I have nothing to suggest I should doubt the sincerity of the two heads on whose behalf you speak. I hope and trust that the school has undergone a sea change and does not continue to blight children's lives. However, even if the school is now unrecognisable from the insanity of the 1970s, 80s and 90s, St James as an entity bears responsibility for what we suffered. I urge you to use your influence with the school to persuade them to say one simple word: Sorry. Nothing will be achieved without that start.

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Postby lowpass » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:58 am

If this is the Jerome Webb i remember...

......I believe your post is written with the best intentions and the desire to help others (and the current school maybe?)

But I doubt Jerome you really realise what a terrible time some people went through at St James. I remember you well from the 70s, we studied in the same class together at Queensgate and Chepstow for seven years and you were a great guy back then! The point you may be unaware of is the cruelty was specifically singled out for certain individuals, while others fitted were passed over or slipped through. I remember you were never caned ( not even once- please correct me if wrong!) or physically abused as much as myself and others, so I tentatively suggest the bad times you mention having would really pale into insignificance compared to mine, and as i was your study companion for many years I can safely tell you that you had no idea what went one outside the lessons or behind the scenes or after school in those crackpot group sessions.

Reconciliations from a now contrite teacher (cant imagine it, people involved with cults never admit mistakes, everything is ultimately justified for some distant higher purpose) would only benefit the reputation of the current school, how nice that traumatised ex pupils can finally make peace, and bury those noisy skeletons of the past. Perhaps if you only had the odd club round the head from Barber, the occasional fit from Russell, or a single punch in the face from Lacey, and NEVER had to deal with Debenham (and perhaps wanted to jump back in the SES ship - are you still entangled?) tea biscuits and a chat about "the glory of ones life" might suffice. However when a pattern of abuse becomes so regular as to almost systematic, it does lasting damage, which only time and good faith can heal. Therefore reconciliation is not the issue.

The punishments administered, clothed in the confused ramblings of Leon Maclaren and driven by SES induced repression and self loathing were nothing like that given in other private schools at that time. Simply put, Debenham and Co would be in court answering to criminal charges. Personally I have got over 99% of it and have moved on but it caused me a lot of unnecessary problems in earlier years, and I am sure it shaped my personality and destiny somehow.

Please excuse my anonimity.

Peace.

Antises

Postby Antises » Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:28 pm

Jerome Webb wrote:I know that for the girls much of this reconciliation has only been possible because of the totally open invitation extended to them by Laura Hyde, the headmistress of the girls senior school, to meet, listen, discuss and find resolutions.


Why not find out for yourself, Tom Grubb & Co., whether or not this statement is merely damage control? I doubt Jerome Webb would make such a claim if it were false because, presumably, some old boys will be in contact with some old girls (some even marry each other). I hate the SES and I don't know Jerome, but expecting him to feel apologetic for something he didn't do really is unacceptable.

The bottom line is this: whatever attempt anyone makes to find resolutions and induce apologies for the sufferers of St Vedast/St James/SES it will always be labelled as damage control. Why? I honestly don't know, but I can guess: from what I've read it appears Tom Grubb & Co. first want a public apology. They want to be heros who can claim that they have saved the world of a sick and evil cult by making it publicly apologise and lose face, fighting relentlessly for justice and their own egos. Now, if Tom & Co. really wanted an honest, heartfelt apology - not just some PR - they would accept personal apologies and look forward to any opportunity where this might become a reality. But, oh no, they're too traumatised for that! What rubbish! I know many who had extremely "negative residues" from St James who will gladly return to scold their former teachers, as well as many who will return to thank them.

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Tue Aug 10, 2004 7:57 pm

I hate the SES and I don't know Jerome, but expecting him to feel apologetic for something he didn't do really is unacceptable.

Exactly my point, Antises! (Have you actually read my previous post?) I don?t know Jerome, either, but I do know that he was a pupil at St James, not a teacher or abuser! Of course there would be no point in him apologising! There would also be absolutely no point in David Boddy apologising since, as I told him to his face when I first met him, he has nothing to apologise for! The people I (by the way, I?m not ?Tom Grubb & Co.? and I try not to speak for other people unless I?m fairly confident that they agree with me) want to meet are the people who actually carried out the abuse. I?m not interested in listening to Boddy, Webb or Hyde making soothing noises but, as I said in my previous post, I have no objection to any of them facilitating at a meeting with the abusers.

The bottom line is this: whatever attempt anyone makes to find resolutions and induce apologies for the sufferers of St Vedast/St James/SES it will always be labelled as damage control. Why? I honestly don't know, but I can guess: from what I've read it appears Tom Grubb & Co. first want a public apology.

Yes, we want a full public apology but no, it doesn?t have to come before private and personal apologies. May I ask if you think we don?t deserve a public apology?

They want to be heros who can claim that they have saved the world of a sick and evil cult by making it publicly apologise and lose face, fighting relentlessly for justice and their own egos.

This is just plain offensive. Actually, ?Tom Grubb & Co.? want reconciliation, but first we want truth.

Now, if Tom & Co. really wanted an honest, heartfelt apology - not just some PR - they would accept personal apologies and look forward to any opportunity where this might become a reality. But, oh no, they're too traumatised for that! What rubbish!

This is even more offensive. Please re-read some of the testimonies courageously posted on this forum by survivors of St James and St Vedast. Imagine what it must have been like for them at those schools and then imagine the effect of all this appalling abuse on their later lives. Then ask yourself why they might still have reservations about meeting the perpetrators of this abuse. And believe me, what?s appearing on this forum is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the extent of the abuse at St Vedast and St James is concerned.

I know many who had extremely "negative residues" from St James who will gladly return to scold their former teachers, as well as many who will return to thank them.

Perhaps. But, as difficult as you might find this to believe, this isn't about scolding anybody, at least not for me. This is about abusers facing up to what they have done, acknowledging it and apologising sincerely for it.

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Postby Alban » Tue Aug 10, 2004 8:33 pm

Antises, I'm not sure whether you are spouting such nonsensical rhetoric just for effect, or because you actually believe it.

Having been told that there is a group of people currently in talks with Nicholas Debenham and David Boddy, you continue to ask the question "why not find out for yourself".

No-one is asking J Webb to apologise for the behaviour of the teachers at St James and St Vedast. He may have been asked to apologise for his rather patronising post, but yet again, you appear to have completely missed the plot on that.

As for the claptrap about wanting to be heroes, I disrespectfully suggest that you are talking out of your arse! Here are a number of people who were systematically abused for a significant part of their childhood. Do you really believe that seeking closure on such a chapter in ones life is an heroic act? In some cases it may have been struggle to come to terms with it, but that is as close to heroism as it gets. Neither is there anything egotistical about it, in fact the opposite is true in that it is quite a humiliating experience to re-live the period in question.

As for an apology, well anything in that line would be welcome, public or private...even an admission of remorse or guilt, but nothing concrete has yet been forthcoming. We all make mistakes, I for one am certainly not proud of everything I've done over the last 25 years, so why can't they admit, in the face of over-whelming evidence and established research, that their actions were less than perfect. This act of denial says more about the people than their previous acts of abuse.

When you are man-enough Antises, to accept the wide variety of emotions, values and standards that exist in any community, then you may be in a position to judge whether the emotional impact of an action constitutes trauma or not. Until then I would suggest that you read the many accounts on this board with an open mind and an open heart, and refrain from alienating yourself from so many in such a small period of time.

Matthew
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Postby Matthew » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:01 pm

You may even wish to reveal your identity too Antises. I wonder if you would come out with half the things you do if you used your real name (like many others on this forum do).

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Postby Guest » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:02 pm

I'm not going to attempt to tear apart everyone's posts, mainly because I don't have time, partly because I do not think it will be a positive contribution to this forum (we could end up going round in circles with quoting each other). But there is one thing:

Tom Grubb wrote:Perhaps. But, as difficult as you might find this to believe, this isn't about scolding anybody, at least not for me.


So let me get this straight: you say that there are people who are so traumatised that they cannot lay their eyes on their former teachers and that there may possibly be some who have the courage to scold them. I would extrapolate and say that there will be many in between who want to meet their teachers for the right reasons: reconciliation and closure. What about them? Why can't they take on the heads' offer?

I'm still disgusted at the overall reaction to Jerome's post. You can all infer what you like from what you see as a patronising and deceitful post, some even implying he is a vehicle for the SES message. If you want me to the open-minded (although, to be honest, "opening" to a select few regular like-minded posters seems to be "closing" - and no, I still don't buy everyone being too distressed to post here or visit school), I also urge you to be open-minded about Jerome's message, taking it at face-value without implications and even go so far as to praise what he is trying to achieve: reconciliation and closure.


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