girls school

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:49 am

Hi Snowman,

I want to respond to your post of Dr Singers work on cult traits.

The initial two quotes
?Coercive psychological systems are behavioural change programs which use psychological force in a coercive way to cause the learning and adoption of an ideology or designated set of beliefs, ideas, attitudes, or behaviours. The essential strategy used by the operators of these programs is to systematically select, sequence and coordinate many different types of coercive influence, anxiety and stress-producing tactics over continuous periods of time.?

and
?In such a program the subject is forced to adapt in a series of tiny "invisible" steps. Each tiny step is designed to be sufficiently small so the subjects will not notice the changes in themselves or identify the coercive nature of the processes being used. The subjects of these tactics do not become aware of the hidden organizational purpose of the coercive psychological program until much later, if ever. These tactics are usually applied in a group setting by well intentioned but deceived "friends and allies" of the victim. This keeps the victim from putting up the ego defences we normally maintain in known adversarial situations.?

especially the 2nd one could be largely applied to most educational institutions for children. Probably all western military systems operate even more along these lines.

The majority of the 7 tactics (1-4 or 5) listed could also be applied to non cult organisations that we use every day around us. I am not suggesting that one should condone of support many of the cult type systems, but the SES is not very different to the large religious systems, many political systems and educational systems.

I also would not classify SES along with cults like James Jones, Davidians, Moonies, even though there is no question that they push a strong brand of ideology and have some questionable characters in positions of power that they abuse.

The punishment meted out to students in the St James schools is not very different to many of the schools in the western world during the middle decades of 20th century. I am not suggesting that SES schools did good things and even though the continued with corporal punishment beyond many other schools, I spent my schooldays in a Catholic school where caning and fear were part of everyday life for most schoolkids. I do not think I am overly traumatised by this, however I am very conformant to authority and avoid breaking laws and rules religiously. I recall the day where I was hauled in front of the class at age nine to be rulered on the hand, then taken back down to the 7 year olds where that teacher agreed what a bad boy I was and walloped me with a ruler in front of her kids. All this while I was changing into gym gear, so I was wearing only one shoe. Should I be traumatised by this? The fact that I can recall it after nearly 40 years makes me wonder, except I find the memory makes me laugh.

There seem to be some people on this board that are determined to paint SES as evil, and I do not believe that is justified in comparison to normal life or some of the other radical cults. I also do not think it will help address issues of past treatment in the schools.

lowpass
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:58 pm

Postby lowpass » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:49 am

TB wrote:The punishment meted out to students in the St James schools is not very different to many of the schools in the western world during the middle decades of 20th century.


Punching children in the face, throwing them into lakes, throwing cricket balls at them etc was illegal the whole last century. Please can you show me a school where children were beaten for not meditating correctly? Or for reading comics, playing computer games AFTER school hours? in the 70s?

TB wrote:I am not suggesting that SES schools did good things and even though the continued with corporal punishment beyond many other schools, I spent my schooldays in a Catholic school where caning and fear were part of everyday life for most schoolkids. I do not think I am overly traumatised by this, however I am very conformant to authority and avoid breaking laws and rules religiously. I recall the day where I was hauled in front of the class at age nine to be rulered on the hand, then taken back down to the 7 year olds where that teacher agreed what a bad boy I was and walloped me with a ruler in front of her kids. All this while I was changing into gym gear, so I was wearing only one shoe. Should I be traumatised by this? The fact that I can recall it after nearly 40 years makes me wonder, except I find the memory makes me laugh..


You are joking, right? Using that example to make your point? you really think that is comparable to what some early St James kids went through?

TB wrote:There seem to be some people on this board that are determined to paint SES as evil, and I do not believe that is justified in comparison to normal life or some of the other radical cults. I also do not think it will help address issues of past treatment in the schools.


I cant recall seeing the word 'evil'. But SES is a destructive cult that has destroyed many lives. Were you involved with SES in the 60's and 70's?

[Fixed up quotes. Daffy]

Snowman
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:31 am
Location: London

Postby Snowman » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:24 pm

especially the 2nd one could be largely applied to most educational institutions for children. Probably all western military systems operate even more along these lines.


TB

I do not wish to comment on military systems here; firstly I think it irrelevant to the discussion and secondly I know very little about them. I do however know a lot about St James and the SES.

I am not sure how you can suggest that MOST educational institutions for children have a hidden agenda, use psychological force and co-ordinate anxiety and stress-producing tactics. If you are suggesting this, please could you cite some examples other than the Catholic Church, which I believe employs such tactics to a greater or lesser extent.

Are MOST educational institutions for children deliberately preventing the children within their pastoral care from putting up ego defences in order to exert control over their behaviour? In my opinion MOST are NOT doing this and only a few are - (including the Catholic church).

Are MOST educational institutions for children established with the specific aim to overcome the individual's critical thinking abilities and free-will? In my opinion they are NOT.

Please read and reference your argument in the context of the points being made otherwise there is a danger of misrepresentation and misinterpretation.

I too would not classify the SES along with the other cults that you mention. Those cults that you mention are far less sophisticated in the promotion and marketing of their ideology. The SES, remember, is run by lawyers, PR professionals, advertising and marketing men; they know how to package and sell their brand in very sophisticated ways.

Is the SES evil? This is a difficult question to answer because the interpretation of evil is entirely subjective. In my subjective opinion and now you come to mention it, Yes, it is evil.

Is the SES radical? Without doubt! Yet it makes out that it isn't and in my opinion, this is again sophisticated and subtle. Because of this they are more dangerous than many other cults because they don't even admit that they are radical; far worse, they create a facade of normality that coerces and seduces people into their brand of TRUTH.

Do not mistake their apparent benign brand of philosophy for normality. As a pupil at the St James and the SES I can GUARANTEE that understanding and exposing these issues will help address issues of past treatment in the schools. I refer you to my previous posting on this forum for further information/opinion:
http://www.whyaretheydead.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=242&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

Simply because your memories of being beaten at school "makes you laugh" does not mean that others feel the same about their experiences at school - DO NOT belittle those who have been courageous enough to bear their testimonies on this forum.

Witness
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:55 pm

Postby Witness » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:33 pm

Snowman is absolutely right.

I have 25 yrs experience of witnessing SES at work on my family and friends and I support what Snowman says 100%.

grimep
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:47 pm

Postby grimep » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:13 pm

TB wrote: especially the 2nd one could be largely applied to most educational institutions for children.


I've got no idea where you are coming from on this - I was lucky to attend 3 different state schools before St Vedast in the 70s, and then back into the state system on leaving in the 80s. I have nothing but good memories (except for the middle school system in Bucks which keeps kids held back in "middle" school until they are 12, still mixing with the 5 year olds, as opposed to other counties where kids join senior school aged 11). All educational environments I've attended were geared to creating a supportive environment within which effective learning could take place... except at the SES run school, which simply seemed to exist as a misery factory, serving only the egos of those that ran it.

chrisdevere
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Location: Battersea
Contact:

Postby chrisdevere » Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:43 pm

TB I have to agree with the others. As someone who thinks that corporal punishment can have its place if used very rarely.

I recently discussed this with a friend who had been beaten at school. He also laughed at it superficially. i.e. Kid at his school got caught shop lifting was beaten (fair enough he deserved it). However when we talked about what went on in depth. He was shocked. Rulers etc and be being pulled up in front of class for an occasional misdemeanour was the norm in most strict scools back then.

Indiscriminate savage beatings and physical assaults were not the norm.

It5 is hard for many to understand the difference between a strictt school with corporal punismnet and some of the really nasty stuff that went on at St Veddast St james. On the face of it. most would think. Yeah that went on at many schools then. However it really was on another level when used by the SES.
Christopher de Vere
chrisdevere@hotmail.com

Snowman
Posts: 75
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Location: London

Postby Snowman » Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:08 pm

chrisdevere wrote:Indiscriminate savage beatings and physical assaults were not the norm.

It5 is hard for many to understand the difference between a strictt school with corporal punismnet and some of the really nasty stuff that went on at St Veddast St james. On the face of it. most would think. Yeah that went on at many schools then. However it really was on another level when used by the SES.


Chris, you have hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. Punishment at At StV and St J, legal or illegal, was justified by the ideology of the SES and the scope of trauma that it caused was far beyond the stories we have heard of 'normal' corporal punishment.

Bringing the discussion back to the title of this thread; how does the humiliation of young girls - as evinced in the testimonies of TS, Clara, anon, emmalu9 et al. - fall within the bounds of 'normal' corporal punishment? There was severe, dangerous and brutal treatment meted out to hundreds if not thousands of girls (and boys) at all schools created by the SES. In each case that I have heard of I know of the teachers personally and know that they were ALL students of the SES brand of "practical philosophy". A coincedence? - I think, Not!!

Clearly the term "practical philosophy" means putting into practice the philosophical principles that are learned in the SES. All the examples of abuse against children at St V and J mentioned on this forum are - in my opinion - practical applications of the philosophy; ergo: their actions were justified by the SES. Therein lies the relevance of the SES involvement in the schools for children and why discussion of them will help to address the issues of the past.

lowpass
Posts: 21
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:58 pm

Postby lowpass » Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:25 pm

TB No one is suggesting St James invented corporal punishment, but that it's administration was unique because most public schools do not believe they are creating a new renaissance under guidance from a hindu guru in india, and eating fried potatoes is a punishable crime and proof of 'low breeding'.


You quote

"...systematically select, sequence and coordinate many different types of coercive influence, anxiety and stress-producing tactics over continuous periods of time.?

TB your ideas about what constitutes the norm in education in this society today are fantasy. My work often takes me into many schools, state and private, none thankfully were remotely like St James. What planet are you on? And please don't go on some vague long winded ramble about how governments can use fear and stress to control the population, we are talking about schools with little kids in them.

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:39 am

Hi all,

My post certainly got a response. Let me clarify some of the points I made.

I am not suggesting that schools in the western world still act according to the punishment process of the 60/70/80's that was St James. What I am saying is that even in first world country schools in those decades direct formal punishment as well as condoning indirect cruelty (eg. bullying) was not very different to this.

My school had a homosexual priest who regularly approached small boys with bribes of sweets, so he could put his hand in their pants. Some kids made an industry out of it and made hard cash to do unnatural things with him. This was widely known through the school by the kids, but not overtly by the priests or lay teachers. It went on unchecked 20 or more years until sometime in the 80s when he was removed to a more remote post. I was not a direct victim but friends of mine who were approached did not seem overly traumatised.

Another priest ran amuck with a cane, beating a student uncounted times on all parts of his body. There were no serious injuries, but the priest carried on as usual and the school did not miss a beat. Another priest used to count to 10 between cane strokes, for one poor kid, so the pain and memory would be that much more poignant. The bloody bruising on the backside lasted for weeks on some kids. At other schools I have heard of knockout punches given to kids.

We had cases of bullying where younger kids were taken into prefects quarters and punched, breaking noses, blacking eyes, in front of numerous senior students (some were passive). When the authorities found out, nothing was done because of race/political implications.

These are 1st world examples, how about visiting a school during those times in some 3rd world countries, like Ethiopia? One poster said that comparison to military is not valid because here we are dealing with adults. Let me assure you there are plenty of young children who carry arms for their countries and discipline, to this day, is severe. Is someone going to tell me that a comparison between 1st and 3rd world children is not valid?

As for the comments by lowpass and Snowman arguing against educational institutions being coercive, using psychological processes etc to mould their young charges.

As a past schoolchild and parent I can tell without doubt that I actively mould my own children in specific 'no choice' behaviours, just as I watch the school do. I am not suggesting this is wrong or immoral, however do not imagine that schools are designed to teach free will and autonomy. I have no intention of giving my 3 year old 'choice' in crossing roads, or choice in attending school, or sleeping or eating. You might argue that these are extreme cases, and they are, but they provide the basis for narrow parameters given to children, for, as we say, "their own good".
All the less extreme ones build upon this base.

There have been recent changes in western schools to try and limit things like competition and directed, structured teaching, however even this system of teaching is imposed upon parents and students. 'Choice' is a politcal word designed to quiet questioning minds in schooling systems.

Once again, I am not passing a moral judgement on this. Just to say that acceptable social behaviour, whether the kids want it or not, is strongly driven into social standards. Politeness, no talking in class, work hard, learn maths, reading, writing, language. All these things are not chosen by children, or even by parents. They are imposed by educational systems driven by social ideologies. I support much of this and have no issue with the need to educate children into becoming good, law abiding, educated, qualified citizens. But do not imagine that coercion or 'hidden agendas' do not exist. Do we ever explain to a 5 year old that the aim of the next 13 years education is designed to make him or her a model citizen so they can contribute and not detract from greater society? Of course not.

The items posted by previous people that accuse cults of certain types of behaviour (and SES) and do not see this as part and parcel of most social institutions. Even benign governments work overtly and subtly to mould their subjects. Sun cancer, smoking, fast food education and drink driving have shown radical mind set shifts in the past few decades as governments seek to change behaviour. Much of this is done at a very subtle level, on the premise that most citizens are too dim to know what is good for them. If we tell people smoking is OK, guess what - they do it. If we tell them its not good, bingo, they stop (some do). This is psychological coercion using the same principles as applied in vilified governments like Nazi Germany. I accept that the outcomes are starkly different between various governments and schools but they use the same mechanims to conform students and citizens.

I am quite familiar with the SES and its penchant for 'blind obedience', and after attending through the 80/90 decades as an adult I got tired of being told how to behave by someone who did not pay me a salary as compensation. I have no experience of St James school but feel that it is mirrored in many schools in the west during those years, and by many schools in the developing countries today. To single SES out and decide that it is uniquely evil and has traits that are abnormal in society is simplistic.

I intend no insult to what past students experienced, by all means seek retribution and apology. Is it necessary to create a monster where none exists and ignore the fact that most human social behaviour operates like this?

Snowman
Posts: 75
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Location: London

Postby Snowman » Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:07 am

lowpass wrote:TB....What planet are you on? And please don't go on some vague long winded ramble about how governments can use fear and stress to control the population, we are talking about schools with little kids in them.


TB, did you not see this from 'lowpass'?

Witness
Posts: 41
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:55 pm

SES

Postby Witness » Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:39 am

TB,

You wrote:

"My school had a homosexual priest who regularly approached small boys with bribes of sweets, so he could put his hand in their pants ...friends of mine who were approached did not seem overly traumatised."

I am puzzled that you as a parent of a young child would write this.

Your peers may not have seemed traumatised, but that is the whole point about why paedophilia is evil.

Time and time again in this forum we the witnesses of SES abuse have explained that children believe what adults are doing is right. The trauma can be surpressed and can remain latent for years only to emerge later in life.

The answer to your rhetorical question:

"Is it necessary to create a monster where none exists..." is that you are absolutely right: no, it is not necessary to create a monster where none exists.

Based on my own childhood experience and the 100+ testimonies that I know of I don't believe I/we are "creating" a moster at all. I and the people I communicate with on this topic are refering to facts that can be evidenced.

Forgive me for not looking for the following info on the message boards, but please tell me, TB, are you in the SES?

If so, how long have you been there? Did you join the SES before your child was born? Do you have a partner in the SES? Are you getting / have you received relationship and parenting advice from the SES?

Many thanks,

Witness.

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:29 pm

Hi Witness,

I am puzzled that you as a parent of a young child would write this.

Your peers may not have seemed traumatised, but that is the whole point about why paedophilia is evil.

Time and time again in this forum we the witnesses of SES abuse have explained that children believe what adults are doing is right. The trauma can be surpressed and can remain latent for years only to emerge later in life.


Why does this puzzle you? I have made a statement about what I observed, not what I think about latent trauma. I have met with these same students as adults and have no doubt that past experiences can affect us as adults. This is well known psychologically, I see it in myself and others around me. My intial comment was more about a comparison between levels of abuse in schools not about the effect of this trauma.

You question of



Forgive me for not looking for the following info on the message boards, but please tell me, TB, are you in the SES?

If so, how long have you been there? Did you join the SES before your child was born? Do you have a partner in the SES? Are you getting / have you received relationship and parenting advice from the SES?


Actually I will not forgive this one, My last comment in my last post was
I am quite familiar with the SES and its penchant for 'blind obedience', and after attending through the 80/90 decades as an adult I got tired of being told how to behave by someone who did not pay me a salary as compensation.


Did you not read this or understand it? I will flesh out my comment a bit. It means that I was an SES member in the 80/90 decades, 1986 until 1998. I joined before having kids and left after my 4th was born. My partner of then and now thought SES was a pile of crap. SES gave me plenty of advice about partnering, parenting, in-laws, remember they have a monopoly on truth (sic) so they give advice on everything. Some of it agreed with my own thought, some did not. I left because I got tired of being pushed around and the resultant conflict in my family life.

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Sat Feb 26, 2005 11:32 pm

Hi Snowman,

TB, did you not see this from 'lowpass'?


You need to learn to think and speak for yourself, not rely on others.

Snowman
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:31 am
Location: London

Postby Snowman » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:54 am

TB wrote:Hi Snowman,

TB, did you not see this from 'lowpass'?


You need to learn to think and speak for yourself, not rely on others.


Thanks for the advice, TB.

Do you have anything valid to offer to this discussion forum? Antagonisn, insensitivity and abrasive contradiction does not - in my opinion - constitute a valid contribution.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that I just learnt to think and speak for myself. Hooray, I am so proud of myself. Thank you for helping me out, TB.

TB
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 11:51 pm

Postby TB » Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:49 am

Hi Snowman,

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that I just learnt to think and speak for myself. Hooray, I am so proud of myself. Thank you for helping me out, TB.





You are welcome - do not be so hard on yourself in the future, everyone has the opportunity to improve themselves.


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