Should I send my daughter to this school?

[TB]

Hi Shout, thanks for your post. In response to your comment

I have now discovered that meditation is harmful to mental health

I would be interested to hear more about this discovery of yours, I have not seen anything that has proven this.

[Tom Grubb]

A couple of links connected to this topic:
http://skepdic.com/tm.html
http://minet.org/research.html

[anti_ses]

Here's a link to a reading list with a different story:
http://www.t-m.org.uk/includes/researchrefs.shtml

And no, Tom can't possibly have been biased in his selection of links.

[Tom Grubb]

Actually, my selection is totally biased! I was responding to TB's comment to Shout about not having seen anything proving that meditation is harmful to mental health, hence the links to sceptical information and studies. Having said that, I'm certainly not claiming that any of this information proves meditation is harmful.

The TM movement makes all sorts of claims about the benefits of mediation, some fairly plausible (stress reduction, etc.) and some (levitation, reduction of crime, bringing about world peace, etc.) less so. There is a veritable Himalaya of studies apparently supporting TM's claims but one should be careful not to confuse number with quality.

Let's not forget, by the way, that such people as Debenham, Russell and Hipshon were, and probably still are, regualr meditators. I wonder what effect it had on their character and mental health...

[anti_ses]

I have now discovered that meditation is harmful to mental health.

Well, you've obviously made your decision. Imagine what Einstein and Edison could have done if they had not practised meditation! And, similarly, William Hague, Stevie Wonder and countless more famous people should be quite concerned about their mental health. Or maybe not.

The mantra we were given is the name of a mythical Hindu prince.

This is true, but not the whole story. The mantra, as any scholar of Sanskrit will tell you, means "pleasing" or "charming" and the prince was named because of the word's meaning. Personally, I don't think there's anything spectacular about the mantra, despite its secrecy. The sound is intrinsically more calming than the effect created by continuous chanting of, for example, "money" or "sex."

On an unrelated topic, I recently learnt about the presence of the sound "Aum" in a variety of different languages and cultures, e.g. Amen in Christianity, Amin in Islam, and the striking similarities in the ancient symbols representing this sound in different parts of the world. Most alphabets begin with "A," the Greek alphabet ends in "Omega," omnes in Latin means "all," "Aaaah" can easily be seen as a primitive sound, etc. - I am no linguist, but this all suggests to me that it's not a randomly selected sound. Similarly, the mantra given, which does not differ very much from "Aum," can be seen to have similar importance. This is my attempt at providing a logical explanation which may be put forward explaining why this mantra is used.

[Shout]

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[adrasteia]

...but possibly an connection to a deeper level of conciousness or reality or spirit from which we are normaly detached?

[Tom Grubb]

Well, you've obviously made your decision. Imagine what Einstein and Edison could have done if they had not practised meditation!.

Einstein and Edison did not practise meditation in the sense that Shout and TB are obviously using the word. Like all great scientists, they mulled over questions and problems and tried to approach them from original angles. They did not sit around chanting 'aum' or 'ram' to themselves.

On an unrelated topic, I recently learnt about the presence of the sound "Aum" in a variety of different languages and cultures, e.g. Amen in Christianity, Amin in Islam, and the striking similarities in the ancient symbols representing this sound in different parts of the world. Most alphabets begin with "A," the Greek alphabet ends in "Omega," omnes in Latin means "all," "Aaaah" can easily be seen as a primitive sound, etc. - I am no linguist, but this all suggests to me that it's not a randomly selected sound. Similarly, the mantra given, which does not differ very much from "Aum," can be seen to have similar importance. This is my attempt at providing a logical explanation which may be put forward explaining why this mantra is used.

There are two problems with your novel thesis, Anti ses. 'Amen' and 'Amin' do not contain the sound 'Aum'! They contain the sound 'Aah', as in 'arse'. And the SES mantra actually differs quite a lot from the sound 'Aum' in that it contains a different vowel sound and a different consonant sound at the beginning. Like you say, "I am no linguist."

[anti_ses]

Einstein and Edison did not practise meditation in the sense that Shout and TB are obviously using the word.

There are many forms of meditation other than TM. It is NOT obvious that the only sense being used by Shout and TB is TM.

"The really valuable thing is intuition," said Einstein. "Through meditation I found answers before I even asked the question." Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart would walk in meditation alone at night, a process that revealed many of his compositions. The poet William Wordsworth spoke of the trance-like states that stimulated his creative thinking. And the physicist Aages Bore dreamed of a planetary system as the model for the atomic structure while he was in a meditative state.

'Amen' and 'Amin' do not contain the sound 'Aum'! They contain the sound 'Aah', as in 'arse'.

You miss the point. If you have studied any etymology, you would know that words generally do not stay the same through millenia in different parts of the world. I only suggest that the sound has importance, and the same sound is clearly in all those words. What's more, they're intrinsic to Hinduism, Christianity and Islam - the fact they all have a connection to religion surely cannot be a complete coincidence.

And the SES mantra actually differs quite a lot from the sound 'Aum' in that it contains a different vowel sound and a different consonant sound at the beginning. Like you say, "I am no linguist."

Open your mouth and say the two words. If you don't notice any similarity, please visit an elocutionist. The mouth positions and sound are similar: I never said the same. Oh, and the mocking remark at the end does nothing to aid your credibility. One thing which will harm any credibility of yours is the lack of consideration you show for those who believe the mantra should be kept secret because of its divine nature. You don't have to agree with this view, but you ought to show some consideration.

Unfortunately, I don't have time on message boards arguing with a single person. I have said what I wanted to say in this thread, so I won't post any more comments here. Dissect this as much as you like.

[Tom Grubb]

There are many forms of meditation other than TM. It is NOT obvious that the only sense being used by Shout and TB is TM.

Yes, it is! This is what Shout wrote:

"My meditation initiation was about the age of 12. It was not compulsory but of course as a child a had'nt a clue what I was doing. It was just another part of the curriculum. I have now discovered that meditation is harmful to mental health. The mantra we were given is the name of a mythical Hindu prince."

This is obviously about TM or the SES's version of the TM technique. To suggest otherwise seems bizarre. It certainly isn't anything to do with the type of 'meditation' (i.e. creative and original thought) that Einstein and Edison practised.

"The really valuable thing is intuition," said Einstein. "Through meditation I found answers before I even asked the question."

All very interesting, though I doubt Einstein ever said the bit about meditation! Type it into Google and you'll see what I mean: it brings up precisely two (virtually identical) web pages, both by Jeffrey Pears.

You miss the point. If you have studied any etymology, you would know that words generally do not stay the same through millenia in different parts of the world.

I'm aware of that.

And the SES mantra actually differs quite a lot from the sound 'Aum' in that it contains a different vowel sound and a different consonant sound at the beginning. Like you say, "I am no linguist."

Open your mouth and say the two words. If you don't notice any similarity, please visit an elocutionist. The mouth positions and sound are similar: I never said the same.

Let's see. Well, 'Ram' and 'Aum' both have one syllable and end in the same consonant. That's about it. They have different vowel sounds with distinct 'mouth positions'. The words are no more similar than, say, 'boat' and 'art'. Perhaps I should see an elocutionist. Can you recommend any?

Oh, and the mocking remark at the end does nothing to aid your credibility. One thing which will harm any credibility of yours is the lack of consideration you show for those who believe the mantra should be kept secret because of its divine nature. You don't have to agree with this view, but you ought to show some consideration.

Leaving aside the fact that you've previously shown yourself to be quite capable of your own mocking remarks, I hope people will judge my credibility on the validity of my arguments and not on whether or not I'm willing to pander to the need of some superstitious people to believe in secret magic words.

Oh, and let me tell you what really annoys me: intellectual heroes of mine being posthumously and dishonestly co-opted by avaricious cults in an attempt to lend credence to their inane dogmas.

[Shout]

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[TB]

Hi Shout,

Regarding the facts put forward in your initial post regarding the brain, something I am no expert upon.

The human has basically three brains and three corresponding levels of consciousness. The oldest brain is the hypothalamus, this is almost identical to the brain of a salamander and therefore from hundreds of millions of years back in our evolution. Around this has developed the limbic system, of a later date, and on top of this the cortex.
The hypothalamus deals with visceral functions, the limbic systen with feelings, and the cortex is the thinking part of the brain

My understanding is that the cerebellum together with the brain stem is the ancient brain that we have in common with our reptilian ancestors, not as you say the hypothalamus, which is in fact part of the limbic system, which originated in early mammals. The hypothalamus, together with the other parts of the limbic system are responsible for emotions, some instincts while the stem and cerebellum handle the basic survival functions.

I offer this different view on brain structure not because I think it relevant to the discussion on meditation, but to illustrate how shaky the facts are that get presented here. At a guess I would imagine that, like me, Shout has little expert or direct knowledge of brain/mind function, as illustrated by the above 'expert' information on the brain. I checked a few sources to validate my suspicions that Shout's comments were incorrect, before posting.

I have nothing personal against Shout, however when you post

think it neccesary to start with some fundamental facts about the human being, in contrast to the fundamental unrealities

I suggest you have a good look at the 'facts' before you base any conclusions on them.

You might also find more information around some of the integration between the various parts of the human brain that demonstrate the level of conflict/harmony that exists. The various connectivities between the systems has developed over many millions of years, however it is not perfect, even when functioning as designed. In many people it is less than perfect and curious conflicts can arise when some of the integrating circuits are faulty. Despite the connectivity there is still room for conflict between a brain that developed with reptiles and brain functions that developed with original mammals, and most lately, the higher mammals. Just as our backbone struggles with our recent bipedal posture, it makes sense to consider that this 'natural and healthy' human being might have a brain that does not quite make a noble savage, but one badly in need of improvement to deal with a world that has changed dramatically in the past 20000 years. Our ability to evolve the function of brain matter from the stone age, in these brief time frames might not be equal to the task.

Is meditation the answer to getting us to the next level of consciouness? I am not an expert on meditation either, however my own direct practice was positive and does not agree with your conclusions that meditation principles conflict with and do poorly against the natural outcomes of the human brain.

[Peter Sanders Reynolds]

In reply to the title of this thread. You'd have to be extremely troubled to send your daughter to this school. No don't do it.

PSR

[Tom Grubb]

Hi Shout,

Much of what you've written on meditation makes sense to me and accords with my general understanding of the process. Some of the technical stuff is way over my head, though! Do you know any links to further info on this or any book recommendations?

Thanks,

Tom,

[Shout]

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