Just discovered this! From ex pupil of Girls school

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:09 am

I think a majority of Australians still feel England the mother country having voted in a referendum to keep Her Majesty the Queen as head of state for Australia?


the reason that referundum was rejected was becaue is was deliberatly skewed and flawed by the PM - who, I should add, I think belongs in a nursing home :)

as to your other claim that the "majority of australians" still view england as the "mother country" - well I check with my good friends Hai Sook, Minh, Bun Hoi, Shay, Kostas, etc etc and see what THEY think. LOL

Your relo's don't live in Ramsey St do they Chris?

chrisdevere
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:45 pm
Location: Battersea
Contact:

Postby chrisdevere » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:21 am

At the risk of sounding very racist, I dont think they are really Australians in the true sense of the word, yes you can argue neither are we and that only the Aborigines are, but even they came from elsewhere.

Why should someone who arrived on a boat from vietnam have any affinity with England? I would argue that to become Australians they should accept and adopt the culture of their new country. But sadly many do not. the majority of original Australians have a bond with England (You should see how many are over here!) those descended from Irish convicts have always tended to be republican for obvious reasons! In my experience though those descended from dutch and German settlers also accept england as the mother country. More recently I noite tht alot of Italian and Greek settlers in OZ are very pro monarchy.


howard is the best PM oz has had in ages! the Aussie Dollar is almost worth something again ! god save the queen! ;o) (used to be the national anthem in Oz when I was a kid!)

Any rate this is probably not a discussion to be having on a site to do with SEs schools but I could not resist being devils advocate. Off for a very exciting meeting with microsoft for rest of day. yawn :o(
Christopher de Vere
chrisdevere@hotmail.com

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:00 pm

so inslulting Australians is just playing 'devil's advocate'?

take it from me Chris, the vast majority of Australians would be insulted to hear that "we" think of the the Uk as the "mother country" - frankly we don't, even those who are direct descendants of poms. 70% of Australians want an Australian head of state. And a hell of australians want to change the flag and get rid of that pesky union jack in the corner. Does that sound like a mob pining for the "mother country"?

And of course there are a lot of aussies in the UK. You know why? Cos they can. Aussies are great travellers (go to the most obscure location on the planet and I'll bet you there's an aussie backpacker there trying the local brew). The UK offers easily obtainable working holiday visas, plus also generous "descendant visas" - as we have so FAR to travel when venturing out in the world, it's handy to have a country where you are allowed to stop, work for a while, and earn some money.

As for culture - we have our own thank you very much. It is NOT 'english', it is distinctly Australian - and the vast majority of new arrivals certainly DO accept and adopt it while also retaining their own culture. That is what multiculturalism is - and it is working. Compared with other countries we have very little in the way of race/ethnic violence.

Oh and most Vietnamese migrants arrive here on passenger jets. Or are you, to quote a Skyhooks song, "still livin' in the 70s"?

Snowman
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:31 am
Location: London

Postby Snowman » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:05 am

ADG and Chris,

Can you please stop this nonsense, pointless discussion on this forum it is immensely dull.

The point that seemed to spark this discussion was about the 'Englishness' of the poetry written on the Erasmus school site. To me, the boys' poems seem to be inspired by the speech in Hamlet by Laertes(?) to his son; "And these few precepts in thy memory, see thou character...." (can anyone confirm this reference?)

MacLaren and the SES idolised Shakespeare along with Mozart, Ficino et al. None of whom - excepting their talents - provided the kind of moral role model that would be approved of by Big Mac or SES. This type of narrow-minded thinking has led the SES into the trouble that it finds itself in today. The self-agrandisement of initiatives such as the Lucca Leadership Foundation and the Education Renaissance Trust are examples of narrow-minded egomania and hubris that will see the SES model fail and along with it the foundations of all affiliated schools for children around the world.

There is a way for the various schools to safeguard the consistency of the academic education of thousands of children - break all your links with the SES - now and forever. The SES in claiming ownership of the truth through its twisted philosophy and obtuse ideology displays its true colours if you scratch beneath the surface.

There are some very serious issues that need to be addressed and whether Australians regard England as the 'mother country' or not is maybe, possibly relevant as a passing comment - so let it remain a passing comment. thanks for the diversion but please no more.

Thanks

Goblinboy
Moderator
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:07 am

Postby Goblinboy » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:04 am

Snowman wrote: "And these few precepts in thy memory, see thou character...." (can anyone confirm this reference?)


Polonius to Laertes, Hamlet Act 1 Scene iii.

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:30 am

The point that seemed to spark this discussion was about the 'Englishness' of the poetry written on the Erasmus school site.


snowman - I do feel that the ORIGINAL point is valid. You mention only the boys poetry in the rest of your post - it was the IMAGERY of the GIRLS poetry that I was commenting on.

So putting aside Chris's ill informed comments about Australia and the "mother country" consider the following scenario

The SES is a cult that was formed in Finland and is very finnish in flavour.

The UK school of the cult posts primary aged children's poetry.

The imagery of the poetry is all about fjords and mooses (is it moose? just going by some funny credits in a Monty Python movie - was it "now for something completely different"?) and winters with no sun.

Wouldn't you think it a bit weird for 9 year olds in London to write such poetry?

*bursts into song*

"Finland finland finland, it is the place that I adore
finland finland finland... "

chrisdevere
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:45 pm
Location: Battersea
Contact:

Postby chrisdevere » Fri Feb 18, 2005 10:20 am

ADG just to clarify. As I previously pointed out I am an Australian by birth and citizenship all my family are also Australians! i think it therefor a bit difficult for me to be an Englishman out to "insult" Australinas!!!!

As to uninformed views, as another contributoir on here pointed out to you, you can come up with facts and figures to support any argument. I would argue the best proof though with relation to keeping links to the UK. is a free and democratic referendum. As per the one Australia held, and the resulting outcome, to keep historic links with the Mother country england.

It appears that you are incredibly intolerant of people who might have a diffeent views or values to you and quite agressivley persue people on this board with whom you may disagree. You say you have no links to the SES. this is what has probably rubbed me the wrong way, as you seem to vehmently persue imposing your views or "truth" on people. which is something i desppised about the SES!
Christopher de Vere
chrisdevere@hotmail.com

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:41 am

chris - stop pursuing this - you have insulted both myself and GB. You say you have Australian citizenship - when was the last time you lived here??? As for what family you have domiciled here - well there ARE dinosaurs who still adhere to the crown - thus the Australians Monachists League. They are most certainly in the minority (pro-monarchy is below 30%)

I told you about the referendum but here are some links.
http://www.hcourt.gov.au/speeches/kirby ... enzies.htm
http://www.ozpolitics.info/topics/republic.htm
http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/debate.html
http://www.apo.org.au/webboard/items/00647.shtml
http://www.republic.org.au/ARM-2001/new ... 2001_2.htm
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:ZZ ... /completed
_inquiries/2002-04/republic03/submissions/sub152.doc+australian+republic+referendum+failure+analysis&hl=en

and I could go on - but this gives a broad enough scope for reading.

The finland analogy stands.

and STOP questioning my right to be here - it is a public forum. If and when Mike asks me to leave I will.


[long last url wordwrapped to make the page readable again - mike 14.3.05]

chrisdevere
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:45 pm
Location: Battersea
Contact:

Postby chrisdevere » Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:49 am

Personally i would argue democratic votes stand!

No one is asking youi to leave nor did i question your right to be here.

I did however question your ability to accept that there are people in this world with different views to your own, that are not necesarrily wrong simply because you disagree with them.
Christopher de Vere
chrisdevere@hotmail.com

User avatar
a different guest
Posts: 620
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
Location: Australia

Postby a different guest » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:07 pm

Personally i would argue democratic votes stand!


not when the question is seriously flawed and the question is based on a decision that is not carried by a majority in the Con Con. Even so, with the more informed pro-republic people voting no, the yes vote still got 45%

No one is asking youi to leave nor did i question your right to be here.

Then why do you keep on flaming me?

I did however question your ability to accept that there are people in this world with different views to your own, that are not necesarrily wrong simply because you disagree with them.


Fair enough - but in this case you have been told by the two resident aussies on the board that not only are you wrong, but your comments about us all pining for the 'mother country' are insulting. Why not pick on GB as well?

as for the other issue we have disagreed upon - i bet you are the only person on this board who "dreams" of smacking yet to exist children. I have given you an honest appraisal of why I consider smacking wrong - it comes from my own experience. Once you have kids and smack them I will listen more closely to what you say. Like living in Australia, you are yet to walk in my shoes. Eeryly I am recalled to comments I have made about the current crop of St james students who have posted here - their ability to do that (walk in anothers shoes that is) is sadly lacking.

Now before we bore snowman to death - can you please drop it? you are entitled to your opinion - but your recultratence in not taking on board what REAL aussies say about their own country is gettign ridiculous.

Daffy
Moderator
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:32 am

Postby Daffy » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:21 pm

People, people, let's all leave it there. I'm going to lock this thread for 24 hours to let everyone calm down :)

EDIT (19/2): I've unlocked the thread again. Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic!

Daffy

dan
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:39 pm

Postby dan » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:49 pm

There is a way for the various schools to safeguard the consistency of the academic education of thousands of children - break all your links with the SES - now and forever. The SES in claiming ownership of the truth through its twisted philosophy and obtuse ideology displays its true colours if you scratch beneath the surface.


I totally agree with these sentiments Snowman and have suggested the same breaking of links in this forum previously.

I think St James should be completely upfront to potential parents about its connections (ownership by)/with the SES. It should publish a detailed document outlining exactly what the SES promotes including its past activities. This document should include descriptions of mistakes made and the resulting anger and mental anguish these mistakes have generated in the wider community of ex SES members and ex pupils of its day schools (St James and St Vedast).

There is a high demand for places in private childrens' schools in west London, which is probably the reason St James has continued to survive. This survival is surprising when:
    the media pontifications (arguing the case for corporal punishment throughout the 1990s) of former headmaster Nicolas Debenham are remembered.
    the SES system of betrothal of St James girls - recent leavers, to much older higher ranking SES men is considered,
    the recruitment of St James 6th formers to foundation groups in the SES (still happens),
    the lack of child protection policies and awareness at St James, resulting in children not being believed when reporting sexual abuse on the premises
these need to be dealt with by St James in a public way.

Debenham is responsible for the deep unhappiness of hundreds of children whose lives he made miserable by beating them brutally and repeatedly and overseeing schools in which casual violence and mental cruelty by teachers on often very young children was common place.

While the violence may have declined during the 1990s as it became illegal, many ex pupils are still reporting more recent cases of mental cruelty towards children. Even if this has stopped now the St James needs to publicly address these issues because former pupils are not staying quiet.

Will these wider issues be dealt with in the forthcoming inquiry I wonder?
Its not a defence in my opinion for St James to say 'these things don't happen any more'. These things should never have happened and it is time this deceitful organization (the SES and St James) publicly admitted and apologised for its many mistakes particularly in its treatment of children.
    Dan

    User avatar
    a different guest
    Posts: 620
    Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:13 am
    Location: Australia

    Postby a different guest » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:40 am

    totally agree with these sentiments Snowman and have suggested the same breaking of links in this forum previously.


    bit hard to do with the schools in Australia and New Zealand as a careful reading of their websites will show you that ALL the teachers are SES.

    and the thing that really gets me is that it is ONLY from learning more about the SES thru this forum have I been able to deconstruct what those websites are actually saying between the lines. For someone with NO knowledge of the SES you would think they sounded LOVELY schools.

    btw can ANYONE get the poem flash animation working on the art page of the eramus school?
    http://www.erasmus.vic.edu.au/artwork.html
    intestingly it starts off with the first stanza ("love of field and coppice") - something many Australians woulnd't even know existed! We ALL know the 2nd stanza tho.

    'I love a sunburnt country
    a land of sweeping planes
    of rugged mountain ranges
    of droughts and flooding rains.
    I love her far horizons
    I love her jewel sea
    her beauty and her terror
    the wide brown land for me"

    Shout
    Posts: 101
    Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:19 pm
    Location: Reality
    Contact:

    Reply to Shona Rose

    Postby Shout » Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:46 pm

    _____________________________________________________________
    Last edited by Shout on Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:38 pm, edited 6 times in total.

    daska
    Posts: 270
    Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:29 pm
    Location: UK

    Postby daska » Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:44 pm

    Yippee, a memory! (I'm always happy when I have a clear memory, I've suppressed them so well!)

    Part of our career/education advice was to go to a local college or university so that we could stay at home. This would be 'safer' for us than moving away and not having our fathers to protect us. And it would be cheaper so we would be less of a burden on our parents.

    Now, this, on the face of it is sensible and caring advice. BUT did any of the boys get the same advice? And if they didn't, why is a girl's education a burden when a boy's is not? One thing strikes me as self obvious: if you stay at home you're less likely to move outside your existing social circle or indulge in activities that your parents disapprove of.

    In my (very brief) chat with my sister last week She said that when she was in StJ she had "expected to get <her> degree and then marry a man in SES and raise babies".

    But she got her degree at the other end of the country, developed a brand new social network and grew up. She is very relieved now that she has nothing to with SES.

    QED?


    Return to “St James and St Vedast”

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests