Moving schools - taking a child out of St James

Discussion of the children's schools in the UK.
leon
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Postby leon » Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:55 pm

It's tough and painful to accept when things you were taught all your life turn out to be untrue.

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Sam Hyde
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Postby Sam Hyde » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:04 pm

MATE, I'm not bothered about the vedas, I have never been taught the vedas, I was taught its maths system for a good too many years but I have never studied the texts. You prove it, its not my passion to damn it as it is yours!

Sam xox..
like the new pic????
thats old now, like me, only 4 weeks to go!!!!!
"I've never let my schooling interfere with my education"

daska
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Postby daska » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:10 pm

Sam Hyde wrote:I'll put it to you straight, my mathematical education was a WASTE OF TIME! For me, a school boy, trying desperately to grasp the basics of long multiplication and division only to have Mr. Cook shouting NIKILAM HAY-A WHAT SOMMIN OR OTHER in his broad accent really confused matters. I for one, and thanks to my parents received extra lessons throughout the pre-GCSE period and all the way up to the real exams.

For those who have the skill, intelligence, application, self discipline and motivation, Vedic maths is a god send. It discovers patterns, laws and rules of arithmetic and employs them in such a way as to simplify the method. Now as a Vedic scholar, I know very little but this is how I understand it.

I can honestly say Sjparent, that I too remember all too well spending night after night crying my eyes out over my sodding nikilam homework not having a clue about it, totally up shit creek without a paddle.


Sam

given the choice between the opinions of the following 'scholars' who would you believe...?

    1. a. A learned person.
      b. A specialist in a given branch of knowledge: a classical scholar.
    2. One who attends school or studies with a teacher; a student.


(N.B. for yourself I'd nominate the description of number 2)

It's obvious from some of your earlier posts that you don't believe the SES teachings regarding sexuality, music etc, so why blindly accept what the SES say rather than accepting that there is a dispute surrounding the age and origin of these specific so called 'vedas'.

I was particularly caught by the sentence: "We consider the imposition of `Vedic mathematics' by a Government agency, as the perpetration of a fraud on our children, condemning particularly those dependent on public education to a sub-standard mathematical education." In light of your comments about your own maths education it seems to be a case of QED...

BTW - I still use vertically and crosswise, it's a neat trick.

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:45 pm

Sam Hyde wrote:I turn the task to you, you prove that the sutras were invented in the 19C. as you claim because you seem to have all the time on your hands!

20th century, Sam.

Essentially, you're asking me to prove a negative, i.e. that these sutras did not exist before the 20th century. That's as difficult to do as proving that DVDs or nylon stockings did not exist before the 20th century. All that can be done in such a case is to point to the glaring absence of DVDs, nylon stockings and Bharati Krishna Tirtha's mythical sixteen sutras before the 20th century.

Now, of course it's possible that Tirtha stumbled across these sutras in some ancient text which was then unfortunately lost or destroyed. One problem with that idea is that, according to the sort of people who actually know about these things (reputable scientists, mathematicians, historians, etc.) as opposed to those who probably don't (the Maharishi and his followers, the SES, Hindu fascists, etc.) many of the methods ascribed to 'Vedic mathematics' were simply unknown to the ancient Indians. And as leon has pointed out, even the foreword of Tirtha's posthumously published book (the foreword was written by AS Agrawala) makes it clear that these sutras don't actually exist in the Vedic literature! It seems we are supposed to believe that Tirtha somehow intuited these principles.

India has a rich and under-appreciated scientific heritage. It does the country and culture a disservice to invent myths about that heritage.

By the way, I also strongly believe that the moon is not composed of blue cheese - but I can't prove it.

Free
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Postby Free » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:56 pm

<delete>
Last edited by Free on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

leon
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Postby leon » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:25 pm

Sam Hyde wrote:MATE, I'm not bothered about the vedas, I have never been taught the vedas, I was taught its maths system for a good too many years but I have never studied the texts. You prove it, its not my passion to damn it as it is yours!

Sam xox..
like the new pic????


If you never read the sutras how do you know they contain a system? Because you were told they did? And you believe that? Because it's 'vedic' it must be in the vedas? Never heard of ''all from nine and the last from 10?" "vertically and crosswise"? If so you do know of the sutras.

I am not damming anything, just questioning the statement in your web link that vedic maths is an ancient vedic system. Re reading Tirthajis introduction (the Sankaracarya who created most of the maths you were taught, or deny you were taught,) it striking how political he was, very understandable given the situation of India at that time. This fact coupled with the lack of any evidence whatsoever before 1900 satisfies me that "vedic maths" is a modern invention. Thats my "proof". Whats yours?

Anyway my last word on it.
Last edited by leon on Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nilsabm
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Postby nilsabm » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:38 pm

Sam Hyde wrote:Ok, it?s all getting a bit much now; you can NOT claim that the sutras came into existence this century. We do NOT know that and do NOT know ALOT, yet many of us CLAIM to know an awful amount about it. It is arrogance in the extreme.
I have stated MY opinion on it, and these are entirely my own beliefs.
I don't however begin to question the foundations of a religion that predates much of what we hold dear to our hearts as a Christian nation! Frankly, how dare you!
There seems to be a large group of people on this site arguing over matters which in fact they know very little about, JUSTICE, YOU IMPARTICULAR!
I might fall under this bracket from time to time but I am very aware of boundaries and making statements like that!

Sam xox


Sam, if you are hoping to go on to university it is worth being aware that it is good academic practice to demonstrate that you have made a thorough, critical appraisal of the data you are handling before passing judgement on its value or authenticity. To question the validity of something is not arrogant, merely good practice. To accept information blindly has the danger of making a person susceptible to unverified dogma. I offer this as genuine advice. I hope you can accept it as such.

P.S. We know they're watching us... but thanks for the warning ;-)

leon
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Postby leon » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:40 pm

not...:) Smti Manjula Trivedi, a disciple of Tirthajis states they were reconstructed from materials scattered across the Atharvaveda. Tirthaji prefers the slightly less humble 'parisista', or appendix.

Tom Grubb
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Postby Tom Grubb » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:28 pm

Free wrote:
Tom Grubb wrote:By the way, I also strongly believe that the moon is not composed of blue cheese - but I can't prove it.
Yes, we can. Humans have been to the moon and brought back pieces for examination. It turned out not to be made of any kind of cheese. Doh.

Sorry, Free, but they were just surface rocks. Dig a tiny bit deeper and you'll hit the blue cheese that makes up 99.9999% of the moon's substance. I can't believe I'm writing this rubbish.....

You're quite right, Free. The moon was a very bad example and I've cheated by shifting the goalposts.

Let me try another one: I strongly believe that there are no three-legged unicorns in France - but I can't prove it.

Alban
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Postby Alban » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:38 pm

Tom Grubb wrote:...Let me try another one: I strongly believe that there are no three-legged unicorns in France - but I can't prove it.


No?..I'm sure it was on the menu when I last visited Paris...Although it did actually have four legs...until a few minutes after the waiter took my order!

...tasted like poule!

Alban

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bella
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Postby bella » Tue May 02, 2006 8:47 am

Free, I mean I wasn't sat down and told "this is a form of TM", like it was a guilty confession (or an attempt to present it as an original construct either). I must admit I don't really understand all the animosity toward "a repackaged form of TM".

Re your concern that the school fails its students in the practice of meditation, maybe others thought the same way. There have been a few groups set up recently here to deal specifically with the practice and "refinement" of meditation, on a regular basis.

leon
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Postby leon » Tue May 02, 2006 2:50 pm

Last edited by leon on Wed May 03, 2006 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

daska
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Postby daska » Tue May 02, 2006 8:37 pm

bella wrote:Free, I mean I wasn't sat down and told "this is a form of TM", like it was a guilty confession (or an attempt to present it as an original construct either). I must admit I don't really understand all the animosity toward "a repackaged form of TM".

Re your concern that the school fails its students in the practice of meditation, maybe others thought the same way. There have been a few groups set up recently here to deal specifically with the practice and "refinement" of meditation, on a regular basis.


Do they practice and refine 'meditation'? As far as I am aware they allow only one particular kind of meditation. I have been told by people who have tried suggesting different forms of meditation that this has been dismissed as being worthless or even dangerous. Even when the personal experience of the person making the suggestion has been exactly the opposite.

Shout
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Natives getting restless now

Postby Shout » Wed May 03, 2006 12:46 am

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Last edited by Shout on Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.

mm-
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Postby mm- » Wed May 03, 2006 12:45 pm

No one, or institution, public or private, has the right to teach your child science-fiction, to induct them into an alien culture, to read/ask them to read religious texts, to harm them with 'meditation', to malnourish them with a low-protein diet, to attempt to recruit them into 'the global unconsciousness movement'. And neither do you.


Exactly right. This is why St James/SES will be held accountable for their actions in a court of law.

I wasn't going to but since it has been mentioned here, I will say that I have had periodic episodes of what-has-been-called-'mental illness'; and I have known three individuals who have had/have serious psychic malady as a direct result of exposure to SES: being St James and parents. I can state that clearly and correctly by reason of my personal contact with/knowledge of these people, and understanding of myself and my family/their families.



This is exactly why my child has been removed from St James. If I had been stupid enough to allow her to continue at the school, I am sure that I would have had dreadful problems. Already there are worrying signs but hopefully time and a new environment will help heal the damage inflicted.


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