Attending the adult schools

Discussion of the SES's satellite organisations in the USA.
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Re: thanks for link Mike

Postby Free Thinker » Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:25 am

a different guest wrote:
ross nolan wrote:
ADG's description of the reality of barbaric behaviour as a "pissing contest" is both crude and unworthy and anyhow innappropriate for a woman

"...inappropriate for a women" ? Image

Ross your posts are starting to sound a tad SESish Image

Um-hmmm = I think Ross should think about how much further he wants to insert his food into his mouth...

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reply to FT

Postby ross nolan » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:03 am

Foot in mouth is it ? -- Just one last reply then . "Innappropriate for a woman" - isn't it obvious? Do women or females engage in "pissing contests"? How ? I didn't ever compete in a "pissing contest " myself but do accept that physiologically at least it is possible for males . Would it be OK for me to talk about some similarly uniquely female crude behaviour ?

Is this a fit way to dismiss an argument that the unassailable 'nobility' of the Red man in the Chief Seattle thing was capable of being challenged with facts -- horrible facts but still facts . I DO find this trite language, "a pissing contest", in this context , to be offensive as for example a local jewish leader did when ADG's "saint" Henry Reynolds' (or his vocal PC supporters - not sure who originated the "comparison" ) likened the minor skirmishing between Aboriginal groups (applies equally to the Indian/American frontier ) and the vastly outnumbered white settlers to the holocaust and genocide . It was rightly pointed out that there is no VALID comparison between clashes between natives and farmer settlers on open ground --usually the attack instigated by the natives who chose the time and place to attack using good military planning derived from their own long history of internicine warfare .
At any time the attackers could withdraw and avoid any deaths etc .
This is NOT comparable in either intent or method to the industrially organized mass murder of Jews by herding them into imprisonment and forced labour then simply 'eradicating' them by chemical means -- it is like comparing death in warfare to a firing squad or some other pre meditated and trapped slaughter.

Does any vestige of truth matter at all or how it is put? What was the lesson of Socrates or Galileo orJesus Christ about the importance of truth ?

Smug 'debating style' chattiness is not helpful and is time wasting -- ADG seems to want to sanctify the Aboriginals who practiced many abhorrent cultural behaviours - the least of which was a practice of the old men of the tribe getting to (forcibly) marry the young women -- I thought ADG complained of this when conducted by the SES ? Is there any hypocrisy in this double standard? Is this inherently racially biased ?

Just to finish -- I was just as taken aback by a close parallel statement from a woman which perhaps is why it resonated -- in 1985 I was involved in a campaign for reform of the Australian department of Aviation (including freely assisting three widows who lost their husbands in unairworthy aircraft approved by this incompetent,self perpetuating and criminal body)
I was handing out a book by Millionaire aviator and later chairman of the aviation authority ,Dick Smith, called "two years in the aviation hall of doom" written , with "copyleft", to call for an investigation, Royal Commission, into this body and a call to arms in effect for affected aviation people .

This book and campaign would be a good model to expose and reform or get rid off the SES/SOP -- a similar problem and experience to apply.

Anyway "Frau Brown" , a flying instructor, as she was known said to me .
"You vill get nowhere'. "If you piss into the wind you get it all back again"
-- just seemed so unseemly for a woman and of course she would not have possibly had the experience; a very "mannish" and unneccesarily crude utterance . I do believe women should be feminine and men masculine rather than the reverse and that this is not stereotyping or "SESish" as accused -- just plain common sense (or maybe we should all dress in drag and do role reversal ?) I value femininity and female strengths/differences and admire many women who acheived great things in the field of aviation against opposition as well as those things that are totally outside my interests or ability to appreciate from my own background.

I couldn't play a note to save my life or sing anything to any real standard but I can appreciate the value and visceral /emotional value of musical acheivements -- the effect on the human 'spirit' is undeniable and is not a figment or just 'opinion' -- neither is the human experience of the last thousands of years of striving for advance (so why turn your back on all learning and go back to 5000 year old or more 'truths') If you look up Jazz on the net it will confirm the black african origins and the "vulgar" root meaning as "sexual practice" , likewise the "tall poppy syndrome" is fully verifiable on the web and is exactly the sort of "don't get out of line or above anybody else lest you be cut down " --- like being politically incorrect and not spouting the right mantra on Aboriginal matters or some other subject enshrined in PC cant.

Point made? probably not but that is it, no more responding.


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Postby a different guest » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:38 am

Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.

Article 1
The Contracting Parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law which they undertake to prevent and to punish.

Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

DAFFY! I probably shoulnd't have answered Ross - do you want me to delete or move my posts? It's gone WAY too OT

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Re: reply to FT

Postby Free Thinker » Fri Jun 24, 2005 4:57 am

ross nolan wrote:Foot in mouth is it ? -- Just one last reply then . "Innappropriate for a woman" - isn't it obvious? Do women or females engage in "pissing contests"? How ? I didn't ever compete in a "pissing contest " myself but do accept that physiologically at least it is possible for males . Would it be OK for me to talk about some similarly uniquely female crude behaviour ?

Anyway "Frau Brown" , a flying instructor, as she was known said to me .
"You vill get nowhere'. "If you piss into the wind you get it all back again"
-- just seemed so unseemly for a woman and of course she would not have possibly had the experience; a very "mannish" and unneccesarily crude utterance . I do believe women should be feminine and men masculine rather than the reverse and that this is not stereotyping or "SESish" as accused -- just plain common sense (or maybe we should all dress in drag and do role reversal ?) I value femininity and female strengths/differences and admire many women who acheived great things in the field of aviation against opposition as well as those things that are totally outside my interests or ability to appreciate from my own background.

Whew!!! I don't know how you can possibly manage to eat anything when your mouth is so full of foot!

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FT ADG a riposte not a response.

Postby ross nolan » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:45 am

Eat well, - it's not what's in your mouth that counts F.T. - it's what is in your head.

"Genocide" -- "INTENT " to kill,injure,mentally harm etc in "PART" any member of a racial,ethic,religious etc group . How about that? ONE individual is a "part" of a group and we usually select a group somehow defined by nationality etc to have a war with ,so even THINKING about upsetting (mentally) a single member of a defineable group = "genocide" by your definition .

Is random,indiscriminate killing then OK? "Pedantic ?" .........

I would think ACTUALLY wiping out a particular racial,religious etc group was Genocide (rather than attempted or even contemplated genocide --extermination =,"harming" =,re locating of children, etc on down to god knows what ?) Do the 'relocated' white children after WW 2 get your concern for being "genocided" ?

This proves my point about Henry Reynolds massively exagerrated claims about "Genocide" -- the only true recent era Genocide was the eating to death of the Moriori - possibly the extermination of the white Jamestown (or was it Roanoake) colony in America could be stretched to Genocide
(I spoke to Reynolds at Melbourne Uni about his claims and views on locking up Australia's massive untapped tidal power resources in the Kimbereley -non polluting,lifesaving etc -- to 'respect' stone age beliefs about "waggyls" -- mythical creatures that made tides etc .

-- Professor Ian Plimer had to point out, after a pitched and bloody battle/demonstration by a few aboriginals and mostly white 'hangers- on' over a supposedly "waggyl" inhabited' piece of 'sacred ground' near the old Swan river brewery in Western Australia that the land in question was in fact reclaimed land "made by the white man " (any doubters ask and I will chase up the actual reports and evidence)

The unthinking swallowing of "the party line", " beautiful lies", "the big lie", "keeping your mouth shut when you should speak up" (but are too scared to have the disapproval of the "in" group or those in power ) etc are EXACTLY what this ( SES mind damage 'topic' )- is an example of and WHY there IS a toxic organization called SES/SOP (or National Socialists, KKK, etc etc ) led by a "charismatic maniac" like McLaren as described ; ditto for the fawning uncritical acceptance of whatever bullshit is being peddled by the latest hirsute and suitably attired eastern Guru on their payroll.

Groupthink is what SOP type bodies RELY on to grow plus fear of being odd man out , remember the old line "when they came for the Jews I said nothing, when they came for the Gypsies I said nothing , when they came for me ......"

Think for yourselves and don't fear doing or saying the right thing and there will be no more L Ron Hubbards or McLarens etc to follow and if you LET them have power over you don't blame others .

End of correspondence . (if you plan a stoning let me know ) R.

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Postby bella » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:14 pm

One little "Bright" spot in all this is that I became aware of the "Brights" movement from this interchange and have joined...

You're welcome, Ross.

FT, what came to mind about "the arts" and sanskrit was the calligraphy and chanting side of things, I think. A sanskrit class - I dunno if you took one, I assume you probably did - has quite a bit of "the arts" about it, imo. It's also underpinned by Vedic teachings, but I don't know if that's reason enough to discount it as an artistic enterprise. Plato and Ficino both have a "religious" base AFAIC; Shakespeare not so much, so I'll say that no, I haven't been exposed to the Indian equivalent of Shakespeare yet. The theatre group at the Bris school did rehearse "Conference of the Birds" for many, many months with a view to performing it (after 3 Shakespeare productions), but the group members were slackers about learning the lines, in the end. There was also a Vedic singing group for awhile, but it folded.

I think some of it does come down to McLaren's initial preferences for the school, but perhaps there are other reasons for the preponderance of Western produce. Culture, for one. If you're trying to get a message across through the intuitive senses, you do it in a language and manner your audience will understand best, and not find too alien or esoteric. Time enough for the esoteric stuff later, if you're interested. Perhaps also, we just haven't seen a Shakespeare contemporary in Indian culture. I'm a Bill fan, so I'm biased, but as much as I enjoy contemporary fiction by certain Indian authors, I wouldn't hold any of them up as examples of excellence. Anyway, I can't answer your question definitively, of course, but I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in.

ADG - As for women writers, artists, musicians etc. being acclaimed as "great"...the SOP doesn't get into Sylvia Plath or Joan Baez so much. I do recall Elizabeth Barrett Browning being quoted once - does that count? ;) Seriously, I dunno. Maybe if we have some examples before the 1800s of women generally regarded as "greats" in those fields, we could do a fair comparison, given the school's preference for older, rather than younger. Yeah yeah, I'll get to the incredibly long-winded post after next Tuesday (my last exam). Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye.

NYC, the Sydney school has seen 2 leaders (I think) since Mavro. He was quite awhile ago, and there are stories of many problems during his time. Just responding to your "is he still in charge of a school somewhere" question.

In other news, "Breaking the Waves" is one of my favourite films. I had no idea Emily Watson was in SES - how about that.

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'Australian issues'

Postby ross nolan » Sat Jun 25, 2005 11:04 am

Just for information -- Mike has opened a thread under "No particular topic' -Chatting away- for "Australian Issues" - I have posted websites that deal with the Reynolds/Windshcuttle controversy quoted by ADG or look at "White Australia etc" and www.

The first link provides a very good examination of the drift to eastern mysticism and rejection or denigration of western philosophy,culture and science -- I feel this is the root reason for SOP/SES flourishing.

It also seems that a guilt feeling related somehow to Karma and the expectation of suffering without complaint has kept some victims from speaking out (like children can be intimidated to keep quiet about sexual abuse against them as if it was somehow their fault)

Manipulation of parents by the organization and them to their children might be covering some level of abuse in the Australian schools but the matter of educational indocrination in their strange beliefs and therefore a basis for investigation on educational content should exist.(day schools)

By posing as an adult education type of course and advertising as such it would seem a basis for misleading and deceptive business conduct would exist for the night 'school'.

It would help if somone could just post an outline of the basic 'worldview' that is behind the teaching ie is there any supreme diety in their version of Hinduism? How is good Karma acheived? What is the teaching on re incarnation and past lives? How do the Upanishads and other vedic scripts fit in ? What is Vedic mathematics ? etc to establish it's legal status.

Prof Ian Plimer launched a civil action against a fraudulent 'evangelist' who had claimed to have found Noah's Ark in Turkey and elicited donations for his 'expeditions' to prove the biblical account of the flood -- the case was lost under trade practice law even though Prof Plimer proved the "Ark" photos were just an anticlyne - geological formation- and the fellow was selling books, tapes,admissions etc in connection .

The critical point was that he, (the evangelist) was not held to be" in trade or commerce" and false advertising does not apply to religion -- cost Prof Plimer his house despite a moral victory (probably a web link about it)

Looking at the texts of the official investigations into scientology (on the first mentioned thread also) and the incredibly detailed and legalistic means of defining what is a religion -- in the case of scientology in that case -- the nature of what I know of the SES/SOP seems religious despite the "science" in the title and almost no mention whatsoever of economics .

If a religious nature can be established then it is engaging in false and misleading advertising at least ( not philosophy )and if not religious then other commercial law comes into play . At this stage more information is required and facts about what is taught after the first two semesters .. Any ex adult members who have notes or can give evidence?

From experience with past enquiries involving investigation of complaints of misconduct and pathological behaviour there is the danger of being swamped by personal testimony that is not reduced to a legalistic form (ie related to lawful/unlawful conduct ) and losing the chance to take some effective action to redress wrongs.
(The earlier mentioned "Dick Smith enquiry" into malpractice within the aviation authority resulted in the biggest response ever to a parliamentary enquiry -- over 6500 pages of evidence ) Is anyone prepared to organize a similar procedure in the US and UK or Canada/New Zealand ? How did the Dutch school get closed down ?

Is there any other way to bring pressure to bear ? Surely a few 'survivor'
ex members can be found to go on Sixty minutes or something similar -- then how does the equally bad scientology sect get to operate without interference ? Perhaps the public advertising is the best key with SOP.

Would like some comments Ross N
post on "investigation into adult schools " for preference.

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Postby NYC » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:42 pm

Bella wrote:the Sydney school has seen 2 leaders (I think) since Mavro. He was quite awhile ago, and there are stories of many problems during his time. Just responding to your "is he still in charge of a school somewhere" question.

NYC wrote:this man [Mavro] is still heading a (different) school?!?

How does the School handle the history? ie, what do the tutors say to people who ask about the local founder, is his picture around the building like Maclaren's, etc?

I'm also curious about the circumstances surrounding his removal. Do you know the story?

The text below was posted on a different thread but seemed to speak to School management issues so I copied it here:

Bella wrote:Someone sitting in the room silently taking notes probably seems threatening to many people who've just joined, though, and heaps of people ask about it. Perhaps that's why our most recent note-taking exercises were to be done after we got home, as was suggested.

"Heaps of people" ask about the assistant taking notes during class, and instead of simply offering, at the outset, the very reasonable explanations available (to help jog the tutor's memory, to prepare the assistant to teach class herself, etc.) the School HIDES THE NOTETAKING. BRILLIANT. THAT REALLY ENCOURAGES STUDENT TRUST and SCHOOL ACCOUNTABILITY.


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background to teachings

Postby ross nolan » Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:41 am

Welcome back (this thread seems to have gone cold recently may be time to warm it up ) I asked for some information on the underpinnings of the teachings in the later parts of the SES --"higher " levels , several things were mentioned and Bella gave a way to find what "manu" was
(thanks) -- unfortunately the answers to my questions seem to again raise problems of the "political incorrectness" of taking issue with "traditional practices and culture" which almost guarantees I get another haranging or quasi-apologetic 'forgiveness' for not knowing any better ......

Accepting that risk, here goes ;- "manu", taught by the SES and at St James, is traditional Hindu Law still being practiced and by definition immutable and divinely inspired .

Go to for a thousand plus stanza printout "Laws of manu 1500 BCE "

There are repeated references to how "females cannot be trusted" , "females tell lies" "women must submit to men " ad infinitum and these are clearly the source for SES subjugation of women (and referred to by ex St James students )
In the opening stanzas (the Hindu "Genesis") for some peculiar reason they refer to the different status of 'animals with two rows of teeth ' -- not unlike the cloven hoof thing in Judaism (apart from Sharks what else has multiple rows of teeth? Funny how bizarre little quirks lodge in the memory )

Another mentioned in passing was "Chita" -- this too is a real doozy .

Check out

"SHOTI-DAHO" (what is it?) Chita refers to the quaint Hindu law that requires a wife to be burned (alive) on her husband's funeral pyre , or, in the case of multiple wives,concubines etc up to 700 PLUS females on one man's funeral pyre (how do you fit them all on ? -- now I am being flippant about a truly horrendous 'cultural practice' - apologies )

Where do manu and chita figure in the Vedic teachings behind the SES ?
(both only came to my attention from others postings on the WATD site )

For some other interesting folk law (that some would say we cannot criticize or "disrespect" since anything you want to nominate as 'equal' to anything else must be accepted as so by all others lest you condemn them as 'culturally insensitive' or 'racist' (good hate words in themselves) carries an interesting story from the English Independent on line "secret abuse shame of aboriginal women"

Amongst the time honoured cultural practices of our aboriginal friends is described the intriguing one called "firestick" whereby an aboriginal man ,having reached the considered conclusion that his wife may have been unfaithful to him can administer an appropriate punishment by using a piece of wood taken from the fire to "enter" his woman with.
Other uses of "burning' to punish, perhaps kill are referred to , 'spearing' also sometimes causes death by infection or severing an artery but hey,it's culturally sensitive.

Hands up those who in all honesty will defend this practice or find it troubling to decide if it must be accepted as 'civilized'.

To conclude , the practice of marrying off (arranged marriage) of young women to older men -- also attracting criticism when practiced by the SES-
(who,let us not forget are a defineable group having a religious or other basis and therefore can claim any 'practice' within their group as being a cultural or traditional one therefore -to some- exempt from censure and, if you do, constituting actual "genocide" which again,somehow puts you in the evil league of Adolf Hitler )

Look up the case of "application of traditional aboriginal law " - the case of Jackie Pascoe Jamilimira -- basically Jackie, a middle aged aboriginal man, "bought", by means of gifts to her family , a 13 year old aboriginal girl as his 'wife' . She didn't like the idea and he "had" to beat her.
(see the law of manu at this point ) He also raped her and otherwise brought himself to the attention of the law and a white (male) magistrate
who, being politically correct ,decided that Mr Jamilimira had not broken traditional aboriginal law and should be let free.

Unfortunately an unenlightened black aboriginal magiststrate (Louise or later Lowitja O'Donoghue , who despite the Irish surname is aboriginal and a qualified magistrate in' white' law courts ) thought that the black law was barbaric and called for "justice" by application of 'white' British based law.

Is this confusing or what ? I(white male) am labelled racist by someone( white female) who would condone female (black) child rape by a (black ) aboriginal man who is condemned by a (female black) upholder of (white)western values as "barbaric" ?

Just to avoid poltically correct doublespeak and oblivious to cheap racist slurs I would condemn without qualification any of these female subjugating, uncivilized,barbaric practices whether manu,chita or even older cultural "beliefs" (eg aboriginal)

If we have no respect for our own cultural advances and swallow archaic crap whether 'mystic' eastern or aboriginal that are too profound and esoteric for our dulled sensibilities to properly appreciate we stand for nothing and fall for everything .

The same group pressure that silences people who enter the SES also operates to "defend" aboriginal 'pure' culture -- even the actual practices are quite similar . How can you claim to support and oppose essentially the same thing ? (ADG ??)

Can anyone add to the background of SES adult school beliefs (or defend them other than by name calling ?)

Happy reading Ross Nolan.

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Postby Snowman » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:07 am


Thanks for your fascinating post. I posted on 28 Jan this year my take on the organisation and it's founding principles, morals and ideology in relation to the schools for children and treatment of women. I have searched for this post and it seems to be missing entirely from the forum. I have therefore included it below:

Snowman wrote:How can the SES and St James continue to so blatantly ignore the reality of this message board and the issues it has raised? As far as I can see there have been 3 supporters of either the SES or St James ? not for some time, however ? and certainly none for St Vedast. The inquiry seems utterly pointless in the form proposed currently and the links between the current day schools and the SES are plainly still active. Yet it is these links that are the root of the problem.

Recently someone on this forum (grimep ? I believe) asked for some documenting of some of the actual teachings and beliefs of the SES. So here are some to begin with:


The philosophical teaching that every child is given (compulsory) is derived from the principles and practices defined by the SES, claiming that ?it teaches the essential truths that underlie all faiths, seeing the major religions as diverse routes to the same goal ? union with God.? I can assure you that from lengthy personal experience this is not the case and that these compulsory philosophy sessions are a thinly-veiled reworking of the core SES philosophy.

The SES philosophy is derived from the Advaita Vedanta tradition (some claim it as religion in itself) whose origins are found in the teachings expressed by the 8th Century Shankaracharya and the succession of teachers descended from him. The AV Research Centre defines AV as a philosophy and religion based on the Vedas that teaches the non-duality of the individual soul and God.

St James and St Vedast were founded by the leader of the SES in 1975, Leonardo da Vinci MacLaren, a man with no children of his own and the man responsible for bringing the AV teaching to the SES in the 1960?s. MacLaren is now dead and is therefore in no position to answer these criticisms but I discussed them with him whilst he was still alive and I know his views.

We are aware that many children were mistreated by teachers at St James and St Vedast from the beginning up until at least the late 1990?s. We know this because numerous testimonies have been posted on this forum and there is no reason to believe they are false. I believe that the principles of philosophy taught by the SES and hence the founding principles of St James and St Vedast are the root cause of and the subsequent justification for the general mistreatment of pupils.

Advaita assumes that:
Every human is caught in a cycle of births and deaths through reincarnation.
To become liberated from this ?bondage? he must come to know his ?true nature? Atman.
The point of life is that you remember again and realise your true nature and become one with the Atman. This is cloaked in Westernised terms in St James as finding your way back to god. As a newborn child you are said to be closest to knowing your true self and as you are influenced by the physical world you move further from that knowledge. If you study the advaita teachings, as you develop the intellectual faculties to do so, you gradually move closer to that point of liberation from the cycle of bondage. The St James sister school in New York ? Abraham Lincoln School ? states on its homepage that one of their core principles is: To remind the child of the essential human duties ? to remember the Creator, to live according to the fine laws of the universe, and to find the way back to God. These are said to be the three promises that you make in the womb before birth and that as soon as you arrive in the world a cloud of ignorance descends so that you forget. The rest of your life, according to advaita, should be a to know again and fulfil these promises. The SES claim that it alone is the vehicle through which this journey can be made and all other spiritual quests are pointless.

Is a 5 year old child closer to knowing his true self than a 40 year old advaita student? St James teachers who were students at SES were told that they were closer to knowing their true nature than the children that they taught, on account of their intellectual superiority. Therefore most assumed the responsibility to raise children to embark on the same journey to self-realisation, confident in the SES ?truth? that their way is the only right way. Couple this with permission from the leaders of the school to use corporal punishment and the result was an atmosphere of fear and anxiety instilled through regular displays of brutal mistreatment of pupils both physically and psychologically. Even as a 5 or 6 year old I remember seeing one of my classmates involuntarily wet their pants in front of the whole class whilst enduring a torrent of rage from a teacher.

Mundaka Upanishad: Part 1: 1st Mundaka; Ch 2
v.9 Children, immersed in ignorance in various ways, flatter themselves, saying: ?We have accomplished life?s purpose." Because these performers of karma do not know the Truth owing to their attachment, they fall from heaven, misery-stricken, when the fruit of their work is exhausted.

From this perspective Children are inherently ?ignorant? and an easy assumption to make - if you believe that sincerely - is that they are also compulsive liars. There have been several people testifying on this forum to having been accused of lying by teachers when they were not and had to suffer the consequences.

The philosophy of advaita underpins every aspect of SES and St James ? as a pupil you cannot avoid its influence on a daily basis. The philosophy classes, morning assemblies, pausing, meditating and various elements of the specific curriculum are all designed to indoctrinate the pupils into the learning about advaita tradition. Biblical studies are merely there to introduce the philosophy of advaita using a more socially familiar vocabulary. Studies of music, art and literature are all related back to advaita principles. The result is an extremely limited frame of reference that is both elitist, sexist and inadequate ? unless, of course, you become a member of the SES.


My family has a long history of involvement with the SES and St James and I have nothing positive to say about the SES (save teaching me the vital life-skill of efficient washing up) and only a little about St James. At the age of 13 I begged my parents to send me to another school but alas, no such luck. At the age of 16 felt that maybe I should try to conform to the school?s expectations and I decided to join the Foundation Group. For 3 years I struggled to find any part of the philosophy which I agreed with but thought that I was at fault for wanting to reconcile my own instincts with the prescribed SES doctrine. When the appalling treatment of one female member of my family was brought to my attention I questioned senior SES members about it. My questions were met with a combination of denial that the alleged events took place and a stonewall response that if anything had taken place it was in everyone?s best interests. My 2 hour debate with Donald Lambie consisted of my questions being answered with a defiant proclamation that the SES philosophy was the ?only truth?. In my frustration I left that day and never returned.

This extraordinary belligerence and single-minded conviction demonstrated by the current leader of the SES and ?shadow? governor of St James, Donald Lambie, is the same attitude that pervades the entire organisation. The origins of it are surely found in the dictatorial style and framework created and enforced by Leon MacLaren; the same man who founded St Vedast and St James. Maclaren is remembered by many as a bully and without a doubt he bullied thousands of people, directly or through his organisations, throughout his life. Specifically he bullied women more than men through humiliating them infront of their peers and subjecting them to subservient, often humiliating, duties. The Laws of Manu ? core to Advaita philosophy introduced by Maclaren - state

154. Though destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, (yet) a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.

156. A faithful wife, who desires to dwell (after death) with her husband, must never do anything that might displease him who took her hand, whether he be alive or dead.

A verse in the Upanishad reads (another core text of Advaita and SES):

If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra: "With power and glory I take away your glory." Thus she becomes discredited. (VI.4.7)

Not a particularly good example to set children and especially impressionable young women. Part 6 of the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad describes all manner of sexual activity between married and unmarried couples including detailed mantras for recitation during sexual intercourse should the couple wish to conceive or not. We were told that sex was merely an act for reproduction.


The SES teaching is riddled with self-serving hypocrisy that ensures a mysterious veil of confusion is created making the blinded student ever more dependent on the SES for providing answers ? ultimately a fruitless pursuit. Their crutches of contrived intellectual pursuits are elitist, exclusionist and the ultimate vanity of the organisation and they should heed the warning of their own prescriptive texts:

Mundaka Upanishad: Part 1: 1st Mundaka; Ch 2
v8. Fools, dwelling in darkness, but wise only in their own conceit and puffed up with vain scholarship, wander about, being afflicted by many ills, like blind men led by the blind.

Continually as students, at St James and SES, we were told that we were at the spearhead of a new Renaissance ? music, arts, rhetoric, philosophy etc? and that we would become future leaders of society. I have deliberately used a capital letter for the word Renaissance because it represents two important ideas. Firstly that the Renaissance as understood by most people today is an historical canon coined to describe both a period of time (c1400 ? c1520) and a cultural ideology that created an explosion of philosophical debate, archaeology, religious division and artistic empiricism. Secondly the term itself (with a capital R) was coined by imperially paranoid Victorians intent on segregating history into neat packages for ease of derision or admiration. Both these beliefs are shared by the SES and the Renaissance is heralded as their aspiration for society.

I cannot understand why an organisation, which proclaims moral superiority in today?s ?morally corrupt? society, would aspire to Renaissance ideology which served itself to the detriment of all others. Why anyone who wishes for a better society today would hold up as a paradigm the decadence, corruption and suffering of a 500 year old failed regional dictatorship.

The Medici family (credited as the founders and driving force of the Renaissance) were usurers, continually fighting other power-hungry families for control of trade and civic life. Most of the artists were homosexual. The Medici nominated themselves ?Primus inter Pares? (First among equals) in Florentine society and dealt with their detractors with ruthless assassination plots. They bought their way into the corridors of political and ecclesiastical power all in an attempt to secure their dynastic legacy. Everything they did was in their own interests.

Leading neatly back to the SES and the Schools established for its children. This Internal Inquiry is evidently being structured to serve the interests of the SES and St James and is in no way an attempt to discover the Truth (NB: a principal tenet of the schools is to ?Always tell the Truth?). Maybe the advice we should be taking from their lead is ?Always tell the truth, sometimes?. What the SES and St James needs is a good PR or a political spin doctor ? someone like David Boddy would be ideal for the job. I wonder what he's up to these days?

I implore all students of the SES to WAKE UP to the hypocrisy and the cosy world of faux-superiority that it cultivates.

All ex-pupils of St James, I implore you to make your voices heard and expose any injustices that you have suffered ? in sharing them you will help to heal the wounds.

All current pupils of St James, don?t be afraid to ask questions of your teachers ? I was too petrified when I was a pupil for fear of being beaten.

All those who have faith in God (any God), I ask you to pray for the victims that each and every one will find peace in their lives; and pray that the abusers find the humanity, which is in their hardened hearts, to admit their mistakes and summon up the courage to make amends.

God Bless

ross nolan
Posts: 184
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 5:10 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

snowman writes a blizzard

Postby ross nolan » Wed Jul 06, 2005 11:17 am

Hello Snowman -- very many thanks for your posting and interest ,
Just about says it all . -- I had read your posting before but overlooked it and forgot about your reference to manu thanks for reposting where a few more people (where are you ADG ?-- come back, all is forgiven ) might see it (and weep) .

Detailed information like this is needed to confront the "respectable, middle class, even faintly pedestrian" facade that conceals the SES beliefs -- in the hands of a good journalist just a few telling questions can demolish the public relations screen and reveal the whole sordid underpinnings . Good on you for putting it together so well and for having the courage to confront the 'chief poobah' himself .

I'd like to know what you think will come out of the Townsend enquiry and if it will help do something about the greater SES . Do you think it can be reformed or just needs to be eradicated ? What should be done ?

I will get back when I have a few minutes clear and possibly ,if you agree, discuss the campaign in some detail (by PM if you want)

Is "snowman" any reference to the "falcon and the snowman' as in the young bloke who divulged CIA memos etc relating to ,amongst other things, US interference in Australian politics and the pine gap satellite surveillance,early warning etc site ? Or not as the case may be ?

Looking forward to your thoughts, Ross N

Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:17 pm

Postby NYC » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:20 pm

Snowman on CULTS: A Practical Guide wrote:it should be made clear that the TOR for the inquiry did not allow...scope to include an assessment of the relationship to the SES. Whilst it was touched upon as part of the history and framework of St James it was not identified as DIRECTLY relevant to the inquiry into discipline policy...

So the philosophy administered to children and adults alike, full of 'truth certainties' that are never questioned or offered for debate, primes the students, young and old, for total surrender...

There have been several people on this BB, and many more whom I have spoken to in person, who have witnessed in the SES degrading treatment of its members through a range of methods.

The influence of St James teachers goes the other way, too ? one afternoon, after reading here about teachers throwing blackboard erasers & cricket bats at students (sometimes at the back of their heads) I went to my Part 2 class here in Manhattan. A fellow student, who normally seemed to welcome the material being presented, was in a bit of a mood that day, and quibbling with the instructor ? who put an end to it by lightly but unexpectedly tossing a bottle of water at him.

As near as I can tell the purpose of tossing the bottle of water at the student was 1) to interrupt the line of questioning, 2) to startle and mildly intimidate the student, 3) to gain control of the student?s response ? if you toss something to a person, particularly a guy, his behavior is dependent on yours, he will put out his hand and catch the item instinctively. Also, he is not intellectually engaged anymore, not thinking/questioning/debating, but instinctually reacting in a well-worn pattern, where ?A? is met with ?B? with no internal debate.

Remarkably, it was a very successful tactic. The man carried the bottle up to the tutor, and quit arguing with the material being presented. I said in class basically what I?ve written here, and the tutor said he wouldn?t use the same tactic with me. Also he asked the guy if he was intimidated, and of course the man said no. As if it were likely that a straight man would answer ?yes? publicly to that question!

I would agree that it would be unimaginable for this tutor to have suddenly tossed anything at a woman in class, it would have been too violent & weird. The incident was quite different, FAR less violent than the St. James/Vedast teachers throwing stuff at kids & intending to hit them. This was more like tossing something TO the person, where he is intended to catch it, rather than AT a person, intending to hit him.

I believe that the tutor thinks the reason tossing small items at recalcitrant students is a good teaching tactic is that it forms a bond, puts you and the student ?on the same team? so to speak, and removes the oppositional position, student vs tutor which can get in the way of real discussion. But I don?t think that is the only reason he does it ? the more manipulative and shadowy reasons above are a part of it too.

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